First Fame, now Kids Inc., I thought we had music clearance problems?

Discussion in 'TV on DVD and Blu-ray' started by Steve_Z, Sep 3, 2005.

  1. Steve_Z

    Steve_Z Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    First Fame is released on DVD, now maybe Kids Inc., get released on DVD. How in the world is this possible? How can these shows clear their original music, and they did clear their music, or the episodes would be very very short on the DVD.

    How come shows like these when there are up to half a dozen songs in an episode, while Married With Children can't clear the rights for their theme music?

    Also, how come movies have the original music when they are released on DVD? Yet tv shows have music clearance issues.
     
  2. BrandonJF

    BrandonJF Second Unit

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2000
    Messages:
    436
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0


    Not all of them do. The most recent example I can think of is "Love at First Bite".
     
  3. Steve_Z

    Steve_Z Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Still, most movies do have the original music on DVD.

    If they do release Kids Inc., no reason they should not release All That with all of the musical guests on DVD. It is a more recent kids show, that normally only has 1 song per episode.
     
  4. Joseph DeMartino

    Joseph DeMartino Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1997
    Messages:
    8,311
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    5,610
    Location:
    Florida
    Real Name:
    Joseph DeMartino
    Movies have had a nearly automatic expectation of a home video release for far longer than TV shows have, so they routinely negotiated to include any music not specifically composed for the film itself included for video. (Although even some of these have run into trouble because the contracts specified "videotape" and/or "laserdisc" and therefore did not cover DVD.) To the extent that non-score musical material is used in feature film it is more often snippets heard as background music rather than whole songs used over action sequences or montages (as is frequently the case with TV series.) It can cost lest to secure the rights to a 5 or 10 second "quote" from a song than for the whole song or most of it.

    Also even with movies, in the early days of the home video revolution, home video sales did not account for that much of the income stream, so musical artists and publishers had less incentive to push hard on the issue. There wasn't enough of a money "pie" in home video to make fighting over the size of their slice. In the past 25 years or so this has changed greatly. Home video is now the difference between losing money or breaking even and turning a profit for many films, and even successful movies sometimes gross more in home video sales than they did at the box office. DVD has created an entire market for TV shows on home video that never existed in the U.S. in the VHS and laserdisc days. (With the exception of a handful of cult shows, like The Twilight Zone and Trek.)

    Among other differences this has allowed movies to trade up-front music payments for shares in box office and other profits. Since TV shows traditionally don't turn a profit until they are sold into syndication (typically four or five years after they debut, with shows that don't last that long never making a profit) they are not in a position to cut such deals. Nobody wants to sign a deal that will give them a piece of possible future profits that at best won't come in for four or five years. So TV producers have to pay for the rights as they go, and therefore they have an incentive to pay to lowest price possible - by foregoing things like home video rights which, once again, were meaningless in terms of TV shows anyway.


    This is a total non-sequiter. Each show has its own contracts. That one series has music tells us absolutely nothing about what terms another series might have negotiated and what music it will or will not have. Even if both shows are from the same producers at the same studio, you can't assume anything about show "B" based on what happened with show "B". You are almost literally comparing apples to oranges.

    Regards,

    Joe
     
  5. LizH

    LizH Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 2, 2004
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: KI ...


    Stacy Ferguson has DEFINITELY filled out since then. [​IMG]

    (Today, she's known as "Fergie" of The Black Eyed Peas [​IMG] )
     
  6. Mark Edward Heuck

    Mark Edward Heuck Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2000
    Messages:
    1,187
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Music rights are also diverse, they're not just blanket. You have "needle-drop" rights, which involve securing permission for a specific recorded work from artists and record companies, and then simple publishing rights, which involve just getting permission for the song.

    On KIDS INCORPORATED, the kids were performing covers of pop songs, so all they have to is get publishing rights.

    On FAME, many of the songs performed were original works created for the show, so in all likelihood they were copyrighted by the studio themselves.

    But in the case of most shows, both needle-drop and publishing rights have to be obtained, which is where the prices skyrocket.
     
  7. David Lambert

    David Lambert Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2001
    Messages:
    11,380
    Likes Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    0



    Oh yeah! She went from this (upper left) to this! [​IMG]
    (the 2nd shot contains no nudity, but is a Maxim shot and may be a bit risky to view at work)


    Anyway, did you see my short little bio of her in my news story (which is what got this thread started)? She's also done voice work on Peanuts cartoons as both Sally and Lucy!
     
  8. LizH

    LizH Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 2, 2004
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ^ Yes, I did. [​IMG]


    That's why I mentioned it (For everyone who didn't see it. :wink: )
     
  9. Steve_Z

    Steve_Z Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ok I see. But what about the show I mention earlier, All That?

    On that show, they had a musical guest in every episode. Since those are live preformances by the original artist, what does that fall under?

    One exeption was a season 3 episode, where in the green room opening Amanda Bynes is dancing to the song "C'mon Ride It (The Train)" by Quad City's DJ. No doubt, they would need a neddle drop rights for that song.
     
  10. Mark Edward Heuck

    Mark Edward Heuck Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2000
    Messages:
    1,187
    Likes Received:
    37
    Trophy Points:
    0
    For ALL THAT, they would have to secure publishing, plus clearance from the record label the artist recorded for at the time, and the artist's management. Artist management is a big factor whenever there's a live performance on a show that needs reclearing. For example, the Rolling Stones were not entirely pleased with their performance on the Dick Cavett episodes they appeared on, so they forbade Shout Factory from including them in their entirety on the current box set; they could only present them in excerpts.
     
  11. Steve_Z

    Steve_Z Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    One thing Nickelodeon has going for them, at least for the first season. Is half of the musical guests on All That were all on the Arista label. Or at the time, the LaFace label. If Nickelodeon and Arista could come to an agreenment, they take a major step in securing the music for a lot of the musical preformances from season 1.

    Paramount / Viacom were able to get most of the musical guests on Chappelle's Show Season 2 DVD. So there is hope if All That is ever released on DVD, Viacom won't skimp on the music.
     
  12. LizH

    LizH Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 2, 2004
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0

    I was looking at the KI homepage you mentioned.

    Stacy isn't the ONLY KI kid to hit it big. Love Hewitt is today known as Jennifer Love Hewitt ("Party of Five", "I Know What You Did Last Summer", "Ghost Whisperer". [​IMG] )
     
  13. David Lambert

    David Lambert Executive Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2001
    Messages:
    11,380
    Likes Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yep, that's Jennifer Love Hewitt. I considered bringing her up, but she didn't come on until 1989, after Fergie left. So I discarded that notion quickly.

    The person who I came closer to mentioning, and WILL mention in the next news item for that show's DVD release, is Mario Lopez of Saved By The Bell ("A.C. Slater"). He was on KI when the show debuted in 1984. I didn't bring him up this time, though, because it was Fergie talking about the DVD release, not Lopez. [​IMG]
     
  14. LizH

    LizH Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 2, 2004
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    ^ I wasn't really thinking about that. :b
     
  15. Jon Martin

    Jon Martin Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Messages:
    2,219
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I watched the pilot ep of KIDS INC over the weekend (only the pilot made it to VHS back in the 80's).

    I hadn't seen the show since it premiered. I only remember seeing a couple seasons and had stopped watching it by the time Love Hewitt appeared.

    As far as music rights go, as mentioned above, there is no "original music", but basically cover versions to karaoke tracks. With the countless karaoke DVDs out there, shouldn't the rights be a little easier than say something like WKRP?

    Still, there is A LOT of music in it. It seems every musical number is a medley of some artist.

    They walk by some construction workers, so they have a medley of MEN AT WORK songs. Later, a medley of Beatles, Michael Jackson, Police and Olivia Newton John songs. The finale is a big showdown between someone singing the Rick Springfield catalogue and someone else singing Pat Benatar. Not to mention one character is named Mickey and another named Gloria so each of those songs get a full number. A LOT of music in only an hour.

    As for Fergie, I couldn't believe that was her. No real surprise that she would become the biggest star from the show (although Martika tried with "Toy Soldiers") because she seems to be one of the better singers on the show. Doing a just about note perfect version of Gloria.

    Fun show though, especially if you are a fan of early 80's music and remember the show when it originally aired.
     
  16. JeffWld

    JeffWld Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2004
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0


    That will depend on how many music publishers they encounter that want to play the get-rich-quick game
     
  17. MattGSmith

    MattGSmith Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2004
    Messages:
    74
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Speaking of Fergie. I knew her when she was Stacy. I loved her on KI, she was my favorite. Hot then, hot now! I even have personal letters and pictures from her. I need to go dig them up and read them! I have a photo when she sent me when she was first starting her girl group Wild Orchid, then they were going to call it NRG^Up. HAHA
    Oh, the nostalga...
     
  18. Joseph DeMartino

    Joseph DeMartino Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1997
    Messages:
    8,311
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    5,610
    Location:
    Florida
    Real Name:
    Joseph DeMartino

    Apples - oranges
    Apples - oranges
    Apples - oranges

    How long until people recognize the difference?

    1) Professionals lip-synching to songs as part of a television show which paid for the broadcast rights and later for the DVD rights.

    2) DVD recordings sold for home Karaoke which the music rights holders directly profit from, much as they do from music compilation discs and newly-recorded cover versions of their tunes.

    3) Original artist recordings (meaning performance royalties as well as payments to the composer/lyricists, rights-holder) used in a broadcast TV series which never licensed the music for home video.

    The three cases don't remotely resemble one another and saying that one use is "basically" the same as another just shows how little people understand of the legal minefield that music rights can represent. Laws and contracts don't deal in concepts like "basically the same". They deal in carefully defined specifics - in definitions, in roles in payments, in the rules of the game. If the contract doesn't cover something, it doesn't cover it and you have to negotiate from scratch. And the deal I cut with somebody producing karaoke discs affects the deal I'll make with you to use my music to help sell your TV DVDs not one little bit.

    Regards,

    Joe
     
  19. Roger_S

    Roger_S Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    TVShowsOnDVD reported a week or two ago that, though Stacy (Fergie) said DVDs of the show were coming, MGM (or whoever currently holds the rights) denied they were in the planning stages. So all this talk of Kids Inc. coming may be for naught.

    Martika came from that show, too...she was originally calling herself Marta Marrero...her career went belly-up pretty quickly...I do have a laserdisc of some of her videos.
     

Share This Page