First BD titles under scrutiny: The Fifth Element and others (1 Viewer)

[BrandonJF]

Isn't that what almost everyone is saying? I have seen very few people who think Blu-Ray isn't CAPABLE of performing... with a 50GB disc or VC1. But, if Sony wants to keep squeezing content onto a 25GB disc using MPEG2... I will be patient and wait. Otherwise, I'd be clinging to Ultraviolet and Resident Evil Apocalypse (both very short movies) to hopefully justify my purchase when released...

It IS early. Maybe Sony will listen to early reports/reviews and get their act together so we can see what this format can really do.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Curiously, the best-looking BD so far isn't being released by Sony (Terminator). Interesting.

I can't wait for VC1 on BD very soon so we can start to see some WB BD titles and see how they compare to HD DVD. That time frame should be within a few months.

In any case, I hope to screen some BD titles this week and compare against HD DVD on my friend's 1080p JVC HD2K projector. We screened some HD DVDs over the weekend and they were simply stunning. Truly reference-qualtiy HD images, and I think we weren't even getting full 3-2 pulldown reversal in the Faroudja scaler/deinterlacer when upconverting to 1080p... so the image could have been even *better* than what we saw with real 1080p.

I'll post an evaluation thread soon. BD does have a very high standard to acheive based on the outstanding image quality afforded by (most of) these first-generation HD DVD titles.

 

[RobertR]

I’ve been reading some very interesting comments in an AVS post that make a lot of sense to me. It includes quotes from a Sony Pictures executive:

 

[DaViD Boulet]

RobertR,

Great post. Great quotes. Can you provide the link to the AVS thread as well?

BTW, only one bit of misinformation I want to correct here as it comes up time and time again here and at AVS:


That two aren't comparable bcs D-VHS was *constant bit rate* so its "average" was also it's max. BD however allows for Variable bit-rate MPEG2 so the fact that it has a lower average rate compared to D-VHS is not a problem... it's expected since the bit-rate can lower for simple scenes but also *increase* above D-VHS's max for challenging scenes.

 

[RobertR]

Here you go, David:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=690185

I have to say that what has transpired so far with the BD launch has done nothing but reinforce my negative feelings towards Sony since the rootkit disaster. I don't like the way their management thinks. I don't like their attitude towards the consumer. I don't like the way they're doing business period.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Thanks Robert. I agree 100% with your sentiments about Sony given this lack-luster BD launch (and sub-par BD quality of their titles).

Sony Execs speak out about BD:

http://www.pcworld.com/resource/arti...RSS,RSS,00.asp

 

[JediFonger]

just read a pcworld.com article saying that AACS spex haven't been finalized. is that true or false? if true, taht means the players aren't fully AACS compatible if the finalized spec veers 2far off from what it is currently (beyond what a firmware could fix) just like 802.11n .

anyone confirm?

 

[Joseph Bolus]

Remember Peter M. Bracke who use to run the old "DVDfile" site? He now runs a High-Def review site, and he's also of the opinion that MPEG-2 on 25GB discs is (possibly) hurting the initial quality of the BD format.

Here's some of his reviews of the initial Blu-ray titles:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/fifthelement.html
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/xxx.html
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/unde...evolution.html

Here's a quote from his "xXx" Review:
"So, what gives? Admittedly, I can't really rip the Blu-ray format just yet, because this is only the third title I've reviewed. Plus, they've all come from the same studio. So I can only theorize. One, Sony is currently using only single-layer 25GB Blu-ray discs for their first releases (the format does support 50GB dual-layer discs as well, which could certainly positively affect video quality). Sony is also using plain old MPEG2 compression (versus HD DVD, which employs VC-1). Now, I'm not an expert, but I have to wonder if some of the problems I've seen on these first three DVD releases (the stairstepping, the noise, the overall lack of apparent detail) doesn't somehow have to do with the use of storage-challenged single-layer discs and MPEG2 compression."


He *did* like the "50 First Dates" transfer, although with some small reservations:
http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/50firstdates.html

So .. Here's a long-time Home Theater Expert telling us that he *is* concerned about the combination of MPEG-2 transfers on 25GB discs possibly hurting the format.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Great links. Thanks.


Stair-stepping???

Sounds like maybe a 1080i60 master got bobbed!

(unless it's his display)

 

[JeffreyMercado]

I went to Best Buy all excited to see a Blu-Ray display. They had a Samsung 1080p LCD flat panel hooked up to the Samsung BR player. They were showing House of Flying Daggers, horrible. The picture was just riddled with artifacts. My jaw dropped in disappointment. Was it the display or is it because the disk is so compressed?

 

[RobertR]

Initial "buzz" for BD is going to be very negative with experiences like yours, Jeffrey. I've been afraid of this. The typical mass market retailer (especially Best Buy) does such a poor setup job that most people are going to say "you want me to spend a thousand bucks for that??". Add to this the lousy job Sony did with initial titles, and it's really bad.

 

[Juan C]

Thank you, Robert (yes, I'm "Grubert" on avs and dvdtalk, as some must have guessed).

I hate to see industry execs acting as spin doctors and withholding important information because it is uncomfortable. Regardless of my format preference.

I'd like to comment one thing about The Fifth Element: dirt is unaffected by codec, layers or format. Meaning, if the studio doesn't make an effort to find pristine elements or restore existing ones, everything else is irrelevant.

 

[Andy_MT]

i go along with the idea that this release isn't for your typical HT early adopters.

it kind of makes sense. the early adopters for b-ray (as far as sony is concerned) are going to be their playstation 3 customers, who are probably a much larger and more significant demographic than us. even if most playstation 3 customers don't watch or buy movies, at least sony can say they have a significant (early) installed customer base.

i think we (HT early adopters) feature at the bottom of the food chain as far as sony is concerned, and i suppose i don't blame them. they have bigger fish to fry.

 

[PeterTHX]

I'm in the camp that believes that these releases are there to get product out on the shelves, to get consumers aware of the format.

It's not designed as a knockout punch of HD DVD.

What Sony and the others are doing is actually following the same pattern DVD did when launched back in 1997: get product out...no knockout punch of LaserDisc. But clearly better than VHS. As '97 drew to a close you started seeing dual-layer discs and Special Editions (like "Contact") in time for the holiday season. They want to get the snowball rolling before the holiday season.

We are a different audience. We are not the general public, who's pretty much unaware of HD DVD or Blu-ray disc. Right now Blu-ray has more manufacturers and more studio support so they can afford to let HD DVD have its victory for now.

 

[Kelly Grannell]

DVD was first and foremost to replace VHS not LaserDisc.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Kelly,

You're right about the ultimate goal of DVD penetration. But in order for DVD to establish itself as a viable format able to survive at all (to eventually take over VHS as you say), it first had to convince the laserdisc market to switch over. Otherwise it never would have become established.



Agreed.

I think this early wave of (crappy) BDs is just an attempt by Sony to not let toshiba have bragging rights that HD DVD was out 6 months before BD ever came around.

I think that VC1 and 50 gig BD is when it will really hit big and hit with a vengence... sometime late summer early fall (at least with VC1 first). That's when Sony and Denon will release their players and titles should start to look their best.

Not excussing Sony for the horrid BD titles they've dumped on us (T5E and House of Daggers) but I think that's the logic they're using.

 

[RobertR]

Problem is, the strategy appears to be backfiring on them. The general perception is that yes, BD is here....and boy, they've done a half-assed job with these early titles, resulting in a lot of skepticism among early adopters about the BD commitment to quality. They've lost the ability to say "just wait--when BD gets here, it's going to kick ass". Now they have to say "yeah, we released BD, but it's not the 'real' BD. Wait for the good stuff". That certainly doesn't generate enthusiasm for BD sales for the next 4 months ("ok, you BD guys said to wait, so I'll wait"), especially for a player that costs twice as much as the Toshiba. The early perception is that HDDVD is better, which BD has to work HARD to overcome.

The pressure to deliver on BD50 and advanced codecs and show a commitment to QUALITY is ENORMOUS. Sony's generated a LOT of skepticism about their commitment to the latter, and damaged optimism about the former.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Agreed 100%

 

[Edwin-S]

SONY is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Sony kept on delaying the release date of their player and the general tone of the conversation was, "they can't get it to work". They release some material and prove that it does work and now it is "but it looks like crap". SONY can't win. There is an underlying hatred of SONY that is almost as bad, if not worse than, that of BOSE. I get the feeling that there is a large percentage of HT hobbyists that would like to see BD fail just because it was SONY that invented it.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Ed,

but what if Sony had just managed to put out two "decent" looking BD titles in this first wave? You know... decent just like the *other* BD titles from the *other* studios look? Underworld, Terminator, and the Lions Gate BDs are getting reviews that say "as good as HD DVD" for the most part. What kind of corporate stupidity takes a flag-ship HD title like the Fifth Element and releases something that looks as inferior as the BD they've got on the shelf? It really deserves no mercy (even the BD demo at the Sony Style store made the 5E look so lame that we all wondered what was wrong... and that was supposedly maxing out the MPEG2 bit-rate so it's not just a compression thing).

Yes, MPEG2 on 25 gig isn't ideal and is hard to work with. But Sony's problems with the 5E and House of Daggers goes way beyond... those transfers are horrid and soft and no where near "HD ready" even before we get to the MPEG2/25gig issue! Yet, those are the titles Sony hand-picked to "debut" their format. The other studios seemed to manage ok... what excuse are we to use for Sony's marketing/mastering decisions?