Final Fantasy: Spirits Within - Officially a flop? (1 Viewer)

[Gary King]

TS didn't exactly establish that the toys lived in a child's room, but we can accurately assume that

And I'm not arguing that Final Fantasy needed to establish some Cartesian split or proof of the character's existance! HOWEVER, Toy Story showed some furtive exchanges between Bo Peep and Woody at the beginning of the movie that actually made it meaningful when Bo Peeb seems to pay attention to Buzz. If it weren't for the two or three shots of Bo Peep and Woody at the beginning of TS, the fact that Bo was showing interest in Buzz would have been meaningless.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

Dinosaur was actually half CGI, half live action for many scenes. And IMHO, it was pretty bad, even for a Disney movie (which I'm not a fan of).

If it weren't for the two or three shots of Bo Peep and Woody at the beginning of TS, the fact that Bo was showing interest in Buzz would have been meaningless.

So the scene in the elevator thing, the kiss scene, and the fact that Aki saved Grey's life all don't hint at them having a previous relationship? Even if they didn't, you could assume that and the movie would make sense. The reason why not everything is spelled out for you is because the film was trying to be a little more realistic. The characters in Toy Story were aimed at children and were toys, which means they will exhibit more emotions in order for children to understand it. In TSW, the characters didn't always exhibit their emotions and some things were not even told, so you have to think, based on your experience as a human, what emotions they were feeling and what their motivation was. Theres a whole aspect to the ending that not everyone knows because it wasn't told, but it is still hinted at and was supposed to be expressed less subtlely in the ending. Had people used proper thought, they would have seen it.

 

[teapot2001]

HOWEVER, Toy Story showed some furtive exchanges between Bo Peep and Woody at the beginning of the movie that actually made it meaningful when Bo Peeb seems to pay attention to Buzz. If it weren't for the two or three shots of Bo Peep and Woody at the beginning of TS, the fact that Bo was showing interest in Buzz would have been meaningless.

I thought there were quite a few exchanges between Aki and Gray that showed their love for each other. I felt their first encounter showed that there was definately a long history behind the two. I thought the way that Gray looks at Aki really showed how he felt about her, and also his attempts to get closer to her. On the other hand, Aki's love for Gray is shown by her keeping distance from him.
~T

 

[Morgan Jolley]

Thi kinda hit some things on the head that I forgot to get across. One of them was that the characters' expressions and their actions show what they are feeling. Nowadays, they don't do that with live actors, so its lost and nobody pays attention to it.
In anime, characters will have subtle movements or thoughts or lines that show what they are feeling. If you aren't paying attention to these things, its lost to you and you are left confused. Many people saw TSW and got bored off the bat, so of course the rest of the film was confusing because they didn't pay attention.

 

[DaveF]

"South Park?"
Natch. Likewise, "Beavis & Butthead." But largely 'cartoons' are considered childrens' fare. The perception has been improving over the years. And movies like Iron Giant, Shrek, Prince of Egypt, Antz, Toy Story have also had more 'mature' content. But it's still hard to make a go of it.
As for 'depth' in FF, I'm of two minds here. For me, it's in the middle of the pack. I consider Toy Story 2 to be the 'deepest' mainstream animation I've seen; it blows me away. "Shrek", while good fun, is not deep. It's a straight forward (anti) fairy tale. I put FF in the middle. It attempts more nuanced depictions of good and evil than most movies, but I don't think it completely pulls it off.
Ah! It's like Robocop! (I just bought that tonight ) Robocop is ultra-violent, over-the-top, popcorn action; but it has social commentary and some nice bits of character depth tossed in. It's not "The Sweet Hereafter", but it has more character details than, say, "Charlie's Angels".

 

[Morgan Jolley]

I consider Toy Story 2 to be the 'deepest' mainstream animation I've seen; it blows me away

I think that TS1 and 2 and pretty much all the Pixar movies are so successful and so wide in appeal because of the lack of depth. You feel for the characters, but they aren't deep. Characters with complexity, a story that requires some sort of thought, and realism create depth. The characters in TS1 and 2 exhibit all of their emotions on the surface, which is why I hate most of Disney's movies. The characters in TS1 and 2 have motivation, which means depth, but its exhibited too openly.
Final Fantasy is not like Robocop.

 

[DaveF]

I think that TS1 and 2 and pretty much all the Pixar movies are so successful and so wide in appeal because of the lack of depth

Morgan, I suggest watching TS2 again. I find a few levels present:
-> Kid's movie about lost toys, friendship, loyalty. This is the mainstream level
--> The change (and loss) in relationships over time. Parents seeing their kids grow up, become independent, leave home. Friends saying goodbye to friends. Children saying goodbye to their parents.
---> From what do we derive our value? Is it innate, or is it based on relationships with others? What happens when we our friends / family / coworkers no longer need us?
----> Our own mortality. Death. What's our purpose in life? Of what value are we when we don't seem to have a purpose anymore. Will we pursue love, friendships, relationships, knowing that we will suffer tremendous pain when they are inevitably lost in the future? Fourth level, which I am amazed to find in a 'kiddie' movie, and rarely see mentioned.
And while the emotions are worn on their sleeves (this is a cartoon, afterall ) the progression of emotion is well done -- watch how "Stinky" Pete manipulates Woody.
This is in no way to put down FF; but (to be a broken record -- and to reveal my age with such a phrase ) I consider TS2 a masterpiece of story telling.
I enjoy FF (saw it twice in theaters; look forward to getting DVD), but I just don't find the 'punch' I get from TS2.
And I meant no slam by comparing it to Robocop. I watched it again tonight, and there's good stuff there. Some nice character progression in Murphy; one or two excellent lines that resonate with me; and some silly satire. Not perfect, but trying for multiple goals, and achieving them to various degrees. Much like FF, IMO.

 

[Edwin-S]

---And while the emotions are worn on their sleeves (this is a cartoon, afterall ) the progression of emotion is well done ---
I have yet to see a movie where emotions are are not worn on the sleeve at some point. To me, all movies are going to exaggerate emotions, otherwise they will fail to engage the audience. I liked "FF-TSW" but the character's emotional flatness at certain points made it hard for you to care what was happening to them. In TS2, the "Jessie sequence" made a person really feel sympathy for the character despite its "unreality". To elicit that kind of response meant the writer was able to create a situation that an audience member might identify with because something similar may have occurred in that person's experience.
I don't know why but for all of its "photorealism", sometimes the characters in "FF-TSW" seemed less emotionally developed than the toys in the Toy Story movies.
A lot of people have really panned "Final Fantasy" but I thought it was better than "Pearl Harbor" and "Tomb Raider". I also thought that it was certainly more intelligent than garbage like "Armageddon" and "Independence Day". There are quite a few times on this forum where I have read comments about "Armageddon" being a fantastic, fun, "popcorn" movie. I thought the thing was absolute garbage. In fact, after I watched it I thanked god that I had not paid for it because I would have demanded my money back. I, at the very least, could find some redeeming features in "Final Fantasy".
------------------

 

[Morgan Jolley]

The setting in Final Fantasy was pretty much one of the most important aspects of the film. The characters have become emotionless because they are emotionally drained. The world has been destroyed, half the population is gone, and there is a constant threat. Furthermore, they can't all decide on what to do about the Phantom menace (wow, thats weird) and are stuck at a stanstill. To me, its no wonder the characters were emotionless. The characters in Toy Story were toys, which means there are no rules for their movements, which means they can show exaggerated happiness, sadness, and so on. If the characters in TSW smile, it would look like a real smile and not a huge one that shows how ultra happy they might be. Human actors have limitations because they are human. CGI toys don't, but CGI humans do.
The Jessie scene from TS2 was emotional because of that damn song ('damn song' because it was really damn good). Had the song been something like the song in the opening to Austin Powers, it wouldn't have been as emotional and had the same impact. That said, it was more of a collaborative effort than just good writing.
TS1 and 2 did have some of the depth you mentioned, Dave, but I don't think it went as deep as you said. Even so, TSW went deeper. TS2 was written so people could get the themes without much thought, but TSW requires you to think for a while about how everything comes together and what it all means so that you can see the themes. Depth is not just themes though, its more in the writing and presentation. TS2 did not have as much depth as TSW and didn't really have that much to begin with.
TSW doesn't pack a punch. Its not supposed to. It also doesn't have a happy ending. The movie is supposed to show how much life really sucks and how you can see it one way and be able to get through it by accepting life, death, and love. I can't name many American films, animated or live action, that deal with these films in such a good way.
I said it before and I'll say it again: you aren't supposed to care about the characters in TSW, you are supposed to understand what they are going through and see how they deal with it. Who cares if Gray dies? Aki does, but nobody in the theater does. Its the fact that Aki loves Gray and that he is now gone forever and she can never see him that exhibits an emotional response from the viewer. You don't need to like a character to feel an emotional response when they die. TS2 made you like the characters because it was easier to get a response.
Final Fantasy was better than most of the films this year and most of the films of the last several years. Armaggeddon is a good brainless action movie, but only the first time. After that, I found it boring.

 

[Rollo Lee]

Final Fantasy was DOA. It didn't open big, so I seriously doubt that bad dialogue or stiff acting caused the film's failure. IMHO, the ads were awful. They were vague about the story and basically unexciting. Of course, it didn't help that the film WAS vague and the art direction (at least what appeared in the ads) was depressing and generic-looking. Maybe they shouldn't have tried an approach that was so arty and with such limited appeal on their first huge project (though that appears to be de rigueur for big budget anime).
However, I don't see how you can compare FF with Toy Story 2 and say the latter is so much better. They aren't trying for the same thing! FF was never meant to be a broad, happy, family movie. It's like saying Jurassic Park is better than Gattaca. How can you even compare them?

 

[Tino]

I enjoyed Final Fantasy. It was one of the better summer films.
That said, I don't think it comes anywhere near the quality of the Pixar films in any way, except perhaps the computer graphics which btw were uneven. Dr.Sid for instance looked absolutely real while Aki and others looked a bit flat. I think it was the eyes that looked lifeless to me.
I seriously doubt few here, other than Morgan, consider FF to be better than the Pixar films in terms of story, depth, characters, etc.. They are two very different type of films, but for the sake of argument, let's say the Pixar films are leather to Final Fantasy's vinyl. An acceptable substitute, but just not as well made
JMHO
------------------
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

I still don't like pretty much most of Disney's movies because of the childish content. Pixar's big movies (A Bug's Life, Toy Story, Toy Story 2) all fit in this category which is why I dislike them so. I have seen some of Pixar's other stuff and even though the things I saw were minutes long, they were still way better than TS or TS2.
FF dealt with things that went to a universal appeal. Everyone thinks about life, death, and love. TS and TS2 dealt with similar themes, but they weren't exactly meant to be the focal points of the films. FF was made with the themes in mind and they were shown althroughout the film. Yes, TS and TS2 were probably made with the themes in mind, but I doubt that someone said "lets make a movie about friendship" and created TS2, whereas Hironobu Sakaguchi said "lets make a movie about accepting life, death, and love."
My point is that TS and TS2 were somewhat entertaining to me, but otherwise, they left me with nothing. The only enjoyment I really got from either film was the comedy and the fact that they were CGI films. Other than that, there was nothing to hold my interest.
The reason why animated films are still considered to be for kids is because they are all aimed at kids and have themes/stories that kids can understand. This really bugs me because a lot of anime movies I have seen are really, REALLY, good. If Americans would see that animated films can be good without being childish, then maybe we would see some good ones.

 

[DaveF]

Rollo:

you aren't supposed to care about the characters in TSW, ... Aki loves Gray and that he is now gone forever and ... that exhibits an emotional response from the viewer

I disagree, and think you've identified the problem. I must first care about the characters if their loss is to evoke a response from me. If I don't care about Gray, Aki, or their relationship, then I won't care about Aki's loss.
Let me reiterate: we must identify with characters if we are to appreciate and learn from their joys and losses.

 

[Richard Kim]

quote: Yes, TS and TS2 were probably made with the themes in mind, but I doubt that someone said "lets make a movie about
friendship" and created TS2, whereas Hironobu Sakaguchi said "lets make a movie about accepting life, death, and love."[/quote]
And yet the majority of the people in this thread were better able to connect with and understand the themes in the Toy Story movies than with Final Fantasy. And the TS movies do cover the same thematic ground of FF, "about accepting life, death, and love." This is why Pixar (I'm not talking about Disney mind you) is in the position they're in right now.
quote: The reason why animated films are still considered to be for kids is because they are all aimed at kids and have themes/stories that kids can understand. This really
bugs me because a lot of anime movies I have seen are really, REALLY, good. If Americans would see that animated films can be good without being childish, then maybe we would see some good ones.[/quote]
I agree with this statement. Princess Mononoke is one of my most watched DVDs in my collection. Unfortunately, FF:TSW is not an example of good mature anime.
[Edited last by Richard Kim on October 08, 2001 at 09:19 AM]

 

[Morgan Jolley]

First off, I don't think you need to like or care about characters in order to identify with them. If person A dies and person B is their spouse, you would feel bad for person B, even if you didn't like them, simply because you are a human and understand what they are going through. TSW tried to use this and get you to be able to feel for Aki and see how she felt in the end of the film, whether you liked her or not.
And even so, I got to like Aki, and I know a lot of people who did. There was a lot of dialogue between her and other characters that showed her personality and frankly, she had a good one.

FF:TSW is not an example of good mature anime.

Thats because its not anime and it was not aimed at an anime audience. Had Square given its staff all the time, money, and anything else they needed and had spent more time writing the film and made it longer, it would be more than 10 times as good. Scary Movie 2 had some really horrible moments in it because it was aimed at people who could care less about anything other than dirty jokes and marijuana. Had it been made to be a "good" film, then it would have been very unsuccessful for not reaching its target audience. TSW changed its target audience from gamers to the public, and thats why it was unsuccessful and not as good as it could have been.

 

[DaveF]

And even so, I got to like Aki, and I know a lot of people who did.

Morgan, the movie failed in its attempt to fail at making the audience care, since you cared.
For everyone else, it succeeded at making us not really care, and so failed at making us care about the greater themes.
They can't win for losing.
You've been saying how we're not supposed to care, we don't need to care about the characters to feel the larger themes. But you, who are a great fan of it, cared for the characters, and through that appreciated the themes most fully.
If the audience doesn't connect with the characters, like or dislike -- if they just have no feelings towards them -- then the greater thematic efforts will most likely fail.
BTW, when does it come out on DVD? The reviews are out, but it's not in stores yet.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Dave: the DVD hits stores on 10/23.
------------------
My DVD list | My personal site

 

[Morgan Jolley]

The movie didn't try to make you like the characters. If you did, then thats good. If you didn't, oh well. The movie more tried to show you the emotions the characters went through.
It didn't try to fail at making you like the characters, it just didn't make that its main focus.
So you really disliked the movie because you didn't like the characters? Saving Private Ryan was a great film, but I could have cared less about 90% of the characters in that film, including Ryan.

 

[BrianB]

Like does not equal care. You can care about characters without particularly liking them.
------------------
Nothing In Particular

 

[teapot2001]

Getting back to the original topic, it looks like Square Pictures will not shut down as reported by The Hollywood Reporter:
"Despite the fact that Square Company Ltd. has cut its funding due to losses from the "Final Fantasy" movie, Square Pictures will not be sold, nor will it be closing its doors. Last week, Square Pictures president and "Final Fantasy" producer Jun Aida discussed the company's future projects with The Hollywood Reporter.
Perhaps the most shocking thing is that the company does in fact have future projects. The studio will now become independent, making the bulk of its CGI projects funded by other companies. One project is already actively in the works, according to Aida. "We're currently running as an independent studio, working on one project and actively discussing our next animated project with Columbia Pictures, which we hope to have finalized in the next three to four months," Aida said. "The forecast looks very good."
Among future films under consideration, Aida mentioned that a sequel or prequel to "The Spirits Within" was being discussed, as well as another more "stylized" film. Recently, Final Fantasy creator Hironobu Sakaguchi has mentioned that two new Final Fantasy script treatments had been created, at least one of which featured Aki Ross as a returning virtual actress. If a new Final Fantasy film is created, a release may been seen in theaters or may go straight to DVD. If a stylized approach is taken, the film would be more akin to "Toy Story" or "Shrek". In either event, Aida says that he is uncertain how much involvement Sakaguchi will have in future projects.
Development for the PlayStation2 version of "The Spirits Within" has been put on hold. The specially enhanced version was originally planned to be released in Spring 2002. During the delay, Square Pictures will be heavily investigating the efficiency of real-time polygons. Advancements could easily cut down on development time, and also be implemented on future PlayStation2-enhanced DVDs.
Square Pictures currently employs 125 animators. If the studio decides to create a photo-realistic CG film (akin to TSW), an addition 40-50 people will be hired, but if a more stylized approach is taken, only 10-15 more people will be recruited."
~T