Filtering Bass only from Surround+Center

Discussion in 'AV Receivers' started by JonathanL, Aug 8, 2004.

  1. JonathanL

    JonathanL Extra

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    I have an Onkyo HT-R410. What I would like to do is a create a 5.0 Home Theatre Setup. I want all the bass to come from the front two speakers (they have 15' woofers), while the surround and center speakers will play only highs and mids.

    Is there a way to accomplish this?
     
  2. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    I don't know your Onkyo, but if it has decent bass management, you would set the front L/R pair to large, the center and surrounds to small, and set the Sub to "No".

    But after doing all that, you would want to run the sub level test tones on Avia (which are recorded in the corresponding main channels) to make sure that everything is going where it should.

    Having said that, the crossover freuency will likely be 100hz or so, which is still in the upper bass area. I don't think that there are any receivers or pre/pros that allow a crossover that is actually in the midrange region.

    BGL
     
  3. gene c

    gene c Producer

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    If your 410 is simular to my 500 you should have a subwoofer mode button on the front. Push it until "mode 2" appears. This is fronts large, the center and surrounds small. This sends the bass from the center/surrounds to the sub output and not the fronts but it's as close as you can get to what you want. Also set the crossover to 120 (80/100/120 is available on my 500). By turning the sub off on the receiver (mode 4), all speakers are "large" so you can't have sub off and center/surrounds small. Least not on my 500.
     
  4. JonathanL

    JonathanL Extra

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    gene c, my receiver has the same exact settings as yours. That's my problem, neither subwoofer mode 2, nor subwoofer mode 4 is ideal for me. Is there anyway I accomplish what I want with my current receiver, or do I have to buy something different?
     
  5. gene c

    gene c Producer

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    Mode 2 is as close as you can get. My only concern would be the bass signals that were to go to the center/surrounds is sent by the receiver to the "sub out" and not the L/F. There still would be bass (full range) sent to the L/R since they would be "large", but it may be at a reduced volume since some of the signal is sent to the sub out. This may or may not be noticable. Maybe someone else can say whether a signal split results in a loss of volume. Your only other option is another receiver where the sub "on and off" and "speakers size" are set individually and not as a combination. You could use mode 4 (sub off) and get some in-line "bass blockers" for the center/surrounds but I don't think this would be a good option. O.K. for car stereo but maybe not HT.
     
  6. JonathanL

    JonathanL Extra

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    What if I were to use mode 2, and then split the sub pre-out and hook it up to a stereo receiver that I have. I would then wire the fronts to the stereo receiver simulataneously with the home theatre receiver. Would that work or can speakers only be hooked up to one receiver at a time?
     
  7. gene c

    gene c Producer

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    There are some speakers that are bi-ampable(?) but with those one amp is for the mids and tweeters and one for the woofer. I'm not the best to answer that question but I would never do it. Surely something would suffer damage. Does mode 2 not work for you and if not, why? Is there a loss in bass response? Just curious. It's hard for me to duplicate what you are trying to do as my fronts are bookshelve speakers. No 15" woofers 'round here!
     
  8. JonathanL

    JonathanL Extra

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    Because in mode 2, the LFE Channel still ends up going to the sub and not to my two front speakers. I'm actually thinking about my surround receiver and using the money to buy a decent pair of headphones. After all is surround really great over a good stereo system?
     
  9. Brad E

    Brad E Second Unit

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    Jonathan, what is the reason for not wanting a sub? Just curious.
     
  10. gene c

    gene c Producer

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    As far as I know the LFE is only designed to go to the sub. If there is a way to send it to the mains I don't know how to do it. I would go without the LFE and listen in 5.1 but we each have our own priorities [​IMG] . Sorry I couldn't be of more help. Maybe tomorrow when everyone is back at work, a more knowlegable person can help.
     
  11. JonathanL

    JonathanL Extra

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    It's that I don't want a sub, it's just very few subs out there within my price range have the bass response of my speakers. I don't really want to spend $200 or more on sub, when I can get better bass from my speakers.
     
  12. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    ACK. Holy confusion!

    I am not familiar with your receiver, but first off definitely don't hook two amps together on the same speakers. BAD idea.

    Bass management on any decent unit *should* allow you to set the speaker sizes manually, and as mentioned, you should set the sub to off, L/R large, the rest small.

    gene: The bass gets routed depending on how you do it. None of it is "designed" to go anywhere by force. By setting the sub off, the LFE will get routed to the mains which are set to large, in its entirety. Leaving the sub to on, and the mains large but without an actual sub, you'll be losing ALL the bass from the LFE, and if the reciever is sending the C and S bass to the sub, you lose ALL that too.

    Jonathan, there has gotta be a menu somewhere that lets you set things manually, and if not, then your only option (IMO) is to get a better receiver. I'll bet there's a menu option in there. Bypass the "bass modes" thing and do it manually, hopefully that option is there. I would be VERY surprised if it weren't.
     
  13. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    I just did a quick google for this puppy (there is even a review at Secrets), and it looks like a standard AV Receiver.

    It would be pretty surprising if it did not have "normal" BM functions in there somewhere.

    BGL
     
  14. DorianBryant

    DorianBryant Screenwriter

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    Or, you could buy a Dayton 10" sub which would at least give you a true subwoofer on a budget. Price-$125
     
  15. ScottCHI

    ScottCHI Screenwriter

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    i know there have been some issues with onkyo bm in the past. not sure if this model is one of those with problems or not.

    just an fyi, especially for those WITH a sub. be careful when using avia as a diagnostic tool for determining that "everything is going where it should". many of the subwoofer tracks, like the calibration tones, for example, are actually not purely lfe and are shared by the front speakers.

    the "low frequency sweep, lfe" track on avia is an example of a purely lfe-only track.
     
  16. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    Yup. Thats why I specified he use the level match tracks, as opposed to the sweeps, given what he is trying to do.

    If, for example, he sets the center to small, with no sub (mains set large), the bass tone ought to come out of the mains, if his BM is doing what it should.

    In fact, I thought that the Avia level match tones in question had NO .1 channel content and where entirely encoded on the main channels. As such, if BM is NOT working, you will hear nothing when a sub is configured.

    Is that what you recall?

    BGL
     
  17. JonathanL

    JonathanL Extra

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    I'm giving up on this particular plan, but not on home theatre in general. I'm going to try to find, either on ecost or on ebay a good set of home theatre speakers under $100 to go with my receiver. That way I can just set my receiver to subwoofer mode 1. Subwoofer mode 1 sends all bass lower than certain frequency from all the speakers and the LFE to the subwoofer. Also my speakers will be acoustically matched, which is better for Home Theater anyway.

    That way I'll still have my Sansui equipment for music and my HKB6's and stereo amp also for music.

    Ecost had a deal before for $40, a set of Kenwood HTB-505 5.1 speakers, hopefully I'll be able to get a deal similar to that within the next couple of weeks.
     
  18. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    your logic evades me. Just get a subwoofer. $40 for 6 speakers, including a powered sub sounds absurdly cheapo. Just spend $100 bucks and get a little sub, like the dayton i think from Parts express, etc. And worrying about matching a whole set of speakers for which you are paying just a hundred bucks or so is pretty silly, IMO.
     
  19. gene c

    gene c Producer

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    This unit is from a HTIB and features are limited. It is not possible to set the sub on or off independant of speaker size. When the L/R are large, the c and s are small, the sub is automatically turned on. There are four combinations. Mode 1 is all speakers small and sub on. Mode 2 is L/R large, c and s small and sub on. Mode 3 is sub gets LFE only. Mode 4 is sub off. That's it. You can't select mode 2 and turn the sub off in the receiver at the same time. In modes 3 & 4 I don't know what the speaker size is as the manual dosen't say. But I think all are large. The crossover (80/100/120) functions in all modes. These entry level avr's are excellent at what they do, but features are limited. Some combinations, like what Jonathan wanted, simply aren't available.
     

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