film grain (1 Viewer)

[FoxyMulder]

hi foxy,

i went to the advanced menu.

i am pretty sure that i never touched this, cuz i havent the foggiest idea of what any of it does.

aspect ratio - wide, overscan - on, color temperature - cool, noise reduction - low, insignia motion 120hz - low, backlight 30.

there is also an advanced contrast menu that is available from this one, but i did not go there.

i am happy to make changes to the tv, but i really dont want to change back and forth every time i switch from dvd to blu-ray ?

Overscan should be off or you will be cutting some image off and detail is compromised too, color temperature on cool will produce a slight blue tint to the image, try changing that and insignia motion 120hz should be off, it might be okay at low but certainly it can produce the soap opera effect with films.

 

[jimmyjet]

A transfer of a film to Blu-ray, such as the first release of PATTON and THE LONGEST DAY with out the fine grain that is inherent in film stock gives everything a terrible scrubbed look. Fox fixed PATTON last year. Disney is also scrubbing the grain out of their classic animation which while they still get complaints about it, they are given a pass.I like grain in my movies. To me without is bothersome.

hi allen,

in this particular example though, the problem you had with watching the "fixed" patton is that it lost too much in the detail.

i certainly understand someone being willing to sacrifice one thing to get another.

and i understand now that some of you actually prefer to see grain. that is what i dont get. but then i dont get tattoos or piercings, either.

so i guess that is just personal preferences.

dont get me wrong, i love picture quality, colors and detail. i couldnt stand those big soft screen tvs of 10-15 years ago.

they actually boasted of "soft" images - my eyes interpreted them as nothing but fuzzy, unclear images.

but for me, i would prefer perfect detail with zero grain - what i see in real life (at least when my glasses arent dirty !!!!!)

 

[Professor Echo]

I was recently at a friend's house streaming an old Republic B western on her brand new 60 inch LED set. I had never seen an old movie look that way before, it was as if it were a live newscast in black and white and set in the old west. It was very disconcerting and not an experience I am eager to repeat. I'm really surprised to learn there are people who actually enjoy and prefer that kind of presentation.

 

[jimmyjet]

hi foxy,

i turned overscan to off, color temperature to normal, insignia off.

i left noise reduction to low. you would prefer me to turn that off ?

i may go the opposite direction on it, as a test - if for no other reason, just to see what it does.

what about my "custom" picture qualities numbers ? do they seem real off to you ?

 

[FoxyMulder]

and i understand now that some of you actually prefer to see grain. that is what i dont get. but then i dont get tattoos or piercings, either.

so i guess that is just personal preferences.

I would say the right way is to preserve the film grain of the movie on the blu ray and educate consumers that they have a DNR button on their television, usually called noise reduction or NR, the thing is that once removed we can't get it back, detail goes and smoothness prevails but at least with your TV you can have the choice of whether to smooth it out and allow those of us who like the film grain left in to see it, that's something most of those Amazon reviewers will never understand.

 

[FoxyMulder]

hi foxy,

i turned overscan to off, color temperature to normal, insignia off.

i left noise reduction to low. you would prefer me to turn that off ?

i may go the opposite direction on it, as a test - if for no other reason, just to see what it does.

what about my "custom" picture qualities numbers ? do they seem real off to you ?

Sharpness is too high, it will heighten the film grain and make your eyes sore, can't say anything about contrast, colour and brightness, a calibration disc is needed, each TV model is different.

 

[jimmyjet]

hi foxy,

yes, i am on hdmi

 

[jimmyjet]

I would say the right way is to preserve the film grain of the movie on the blu ray and educate consumers that they have a DNR button on their television, usually called noise reduction or NR, the thing is that once removed we can't get it back, detail goes and smoothness prevails but at least with your TV you can have the choice of whether to smooth it out and allow those of us who like the film grain left in to see it, that's something most of those Amazon reviewers will never understand.

i agree with that sentiment. give everyone the ability to see what they want.

 

[FoxyMulder]

i agree with that sentiment. give everyone the ability to see what they want.

Get this disc, it will be the best money you have ever spent, it's also easy to follow.

http://www.amazon.com/Wow-World-Wonder-Blu-ray/dp/B00462PTDQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370891698&sr=8-1&keywords=disney+wow

Better yet.

http://www.amazon.com/Spears-Munsil-Benchmark-Calibration-Disc/dp/B00CKWI13O/ref=sr_1_1?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1370891822&sr=1-1&keywords=spears+and+munsil

 

[jimmyjet]

Sharpness is too high, it will heighten the film grain and make your eyes sore, can't say anything about contrast, colour and brightness, a calibration disc is needed, each TV model is different.

it is funny that you say that - the one thing that i am sure about film grain is that it is tiresome to my eyes.

when i was watching "think like a man", i noticed my eyes did not get tired at all. and the less grain and clearer the picture, the less tired my eyes get.

perhaps this has something to do with why i like high clarity, zero grain.

 

[jimmyjet]

oh my gosh, a 3 hour video on how to set up your system !!!!!

 

[jimmyjet]

you said that sharpness enhances grain, and makes your eyes sore.

does sharpness also increase picture clarity ?

it sounds as though my taste may lean towards high sharpness with high noise reduction ?

anyways, it sounds like these are the 2 controls that are most apt to make differences for me.

the rest of the changes that you advised - i did and just plan to leave that way.

 

[FoxyMulder]

oh my gosh, a 3 hour video on how to set up your system !!!!!

No, you just use the test patterns, it's not 3 hours unless you really want to listen to all that, our eyes cannot set such things up with accuracy and you are likely losing a lot by not having at least a basic calibration, shadow detail and colour are likely to be off as is your sharpness, this disc will help you set them up, it's all done to a recognized standard, some people pay hundred of dollars for an ISF calibration, all worth it but at least start with one of these cheap discs.

Sharpness does not increase picture clarity, it's fake and an illusion, the edges are sharpened, this results in mild halo's at low levels of sharpness and gradually increases to large halo's and a very unnatural looking image when you turn it right up, some sharpness is usually required with LCD sets but not 20+ and with blu ray you don't need to crank the sharpness up.

If you use a calibration disc and dial everything in you will find film grain more natural looking and it won't hurt your eyes anymore, switch that adaptive contrast and dynamic contrast off in the advanced settings too, they are never any good.

 

[John Hermes]

I like film grain in movies when it is tight and uniform like on Kodachrome film. I read once film grain simulates the normal "noise" in human vision. I was, however, disappointed by the grain in the BD of 12 Angry Men, for example. It seemed rather excessive for 35mm film and detracted from the film for me. I guess I appreciate grain up to a point.

 

[haineshisway]

I'm just going to say what I always say - it is a curious phenomenon of the blu-ray age that people sit in their rooms and watch grain instead of movies. I've never seen anything like it - from DVD Beaver's "thick beautiful grain is in evidence" on, it's just so odd to me. Unless a DP and director were going for a style and look that specifically involved a gritty and grainy look, no cameraman wanted "thick beautiful grain" on a film. And not a one of us who grew up in a different time sat in a movie theater watching a movie and said, "Oh, look at that pleasing grain, that looks so film-like to me." Or, "Where is the grain - it's so fine I barely see it, how strange."

And frankly I doubt the very people posting in these threads about this go to a movie theater even today and sit there and watch the grain and comment on it - they get involved in the film and they watch it. I don't sit at home and watch grain - in the transfers I think are closest to 35mm prints I've owned, the grain is very fine and barely noticeable, IF one were to go actively look for it. Like most of these things, people read something and then become obsessed by it and think they understand it and I suppose a handful actually may. But I occasionally see transfers with popcorn-sized grain that are praised for it and I just sit here baffled because the DP most surely would not be pleased to see that his/her beautiful photography was overly grainy unless that was his/her specific intention - and pre-1965 you wouldn't be able to point to too many examples of it.

 

[ahollis]

hi allen,in this particular example though, the problem you had with watching the "fixed" patton is that it lost too much in the detail.

I'm not sure I agree with that. There is much more facial detail of the actors on the "fixed" disc than the first disc. I do have both copies. The first disc made everyone look like wax figures. But this is my opinion. By the way I don't understand tattoos and piercings either . But I have a lot of friends that do.

 

[ahollis]

I'm just going to say what I always say - it is a curious phenomenon of the blu-ray age that people sit in their rooms and watch grain instead of movies. I've never seen anything like it - from DVD Beaver's "thick beautiful grain is in evidence" on, it's just so odd to me. Unless a DP and director were going for a style and look that specifically involved a gritty and grainy look, no cameraman wanted "thick beautiful grain" on a film. And not a one of us who grew up in a different time sat in a movie theater watching a movie and said, "Oh, look at that pleasing grain, that looks so film-like to me." Or, "Where is the grain - it's so fine I barely see it, how strange."And frankly I doubt the very people posting in these threads about this go to a movie theater even today and sit there and watch the grain and comment on it - they get involved in the film and they watch it. I don't sit at home and watch grain - in the transfers I think are closest to 35mm prints I've owned, the grain is very fine and barely noticeable, IF one were to go actively look for it. Like most of these things, people read something and then become obsessed by it and think they understand it and I suppose a handful actually may. But I occasionally see transfers with popcorn-sized grain that are praised for it and I just sit here baffled because the DP most surely would not be pleased to see that his/her beautiful photography was overly grainy unless that was his/her specific intention - and pre-1965 you wouldn't be able to point to too many examples of it.

It's not that I look at grain and not the film but I find that when there is the proper grain on Blu-ray I can lose myself in the film. The scrubbed titles, such as the first Patton just turned me off. This is my point, proper grain, not popcorn size. Lol - I'm not counting the specks of grain I see.

 

[FoxyMulder]

It's not that I look at grain and not the film but I find that when there is the proper grain on Blu-ray I can lose myself in the film. The scrubbed titles, such as the first Patton just turned me off. This is my point, proper grain, not popcorn size. Lol - I'm not counting the specks of grain I see.

Exactly, we don't look at film grain but when it's missing you can sure as hell tell, detail goes with it and all too often they compensate with too much sharpening which adds it's own distractions, this is something we shouldn't have to explain to people.

I want to also add that the reviews mention film grain because film fans want to know it hasn't been scrubbed clean with DNR, if they don't tell us we won't know and might end up buying a poor release.

The last film i saw in a theater was The Hangover, a digital presentation and yes i noticed the film grain, i can't say i was looking for it, it was just there, i was enjoying the film, pity about the sequels, i have never seen the blu ray so don't know if they preserved it, but it was pretty obvious in the digital presentation i saw that there was film grain, so yes some of us notice these things, it doesn't mean we are obsessed with film grain, i'd like to think i know more than the average Amazon reviewer.

Yes some film makers from the past would have loved to have shot digital with no grain, i'm sure of that, the whole point is that we should preserve the films of the past, warts and all, and present it on blu ray as close to perfection as we can, that perfection includes film grain if present when it was shot, just because we have the tools to lessen film grain or eradicate it, it doesn't mean we should, of course we then get into the argument that going off the original camera negative actually improves on the resolution of the average 35mm cinema print and we get to see things not intended in more detail, wires etc etc, and i suspect that might also mean a sharper film grain than was seen at the cinema.

 

[jimmyjet]

I'm not sure I agree with that. There is much more facial detail of the actors on the "fixed" disc than the first disc. I do have both copies. The first disc made everyone look like wax figures. But this is my opinion.By the way I don't understand tattoos and piercings either . But I have a lot of friends that do.

hi allen,

i was just commenting on what you wrote, or at least what i garnered from it.

i have heard the "waxy figures" comment from others, so no doubt there is truth to that.

 

[haineshisway]

It's not that I look at grain and not the film but I find that when there is the proper grain on Blu-ray I can lose myself in the film. The scrubbed titles, such as the first Patton just turned me off. This is my point, proper grain, not popcorn size. Lol - I'm not counting the specks of grain I see.

I totally understand your point and agree with it.