FATHER KNOWS BEST - Coming in April '08 (1 Viewer)

[Gary OS]

Hank, if you have better inside info that the majority of us here then that's great. I just wish you wouldn't be so condescending about it, because many of us (myself included) don't have the access you apparently do and have no idea what's really going into these dvd decisions. If what you say is true then I agree that the blame needs to be laid squarely at the feet of Shout for just being lazy. But I was under the impression that at times companies were only given access to certain prints, and they had to go with what they were given by the parent company. The way you are putting it, Shout has access to everything and is just making the conscious choice to be cheap about this and go with a more cleaned up set of episodes, even though they clearly know those episodes are syndicated. And further, you are telling us that they very well could get hold of the uncut episodes if they wanted to, and clean them up (which you say isn't expensive), but they refuse not to because they are being cheap. If all of that is true, and this is just nickels and dimes type stuff, then I'm not happy with Shout. I just don't have access to all this info so I don't know for sure what is what.

Gary "I appreciate being given inside info because I want to be informed, but I don't like being talked down to simply because I don't have access to that same type of info - I don't think that's fair or courteous" O.

 

[Jeff Willis]

Hank,

You bring up some interesting points but, as one who is not in the business as yourself, my question would be:

What is the cost associated with the FKB release at Shout! ? As Gary said, we don't have access to Shout's company proprietary budgetary info here and I'm assuming that you don't as well, unless you are presently employed by Shout! . Are you a Shout! employee? Just curious. My take on this having no information would be as a guess. Let me try one:

Shout inquired into the cost of obtaining the prints of FKB and, if the original uncut prints are available as has been suggested here, what is the liscensing cost involved?

What is the remastering cost, if necessary?

What does Shout! estimate for their revenue-recovery on this release? ie, what's the potential sales #'s for this show?

Don't misunderstand me here; I don't excuse misleading advertising regarding TV/DVD sets....ie, a considerably sub-par xfr'ed set where the actual show would be by most DVD viewers, borderline un-watchable. I also wouldn't excuse some of the earlier TV/DVD sets where the studios's early trends seemed to be releasing the edited episode versions until the consumers feeback hopefully helped reduce that practice.

Let's say that Shout! has in front of them, the edited & the uncut versions of FKB and that the cost issue is either not a factor here or has already been resolved. If that were the case and they made either a concsious decision or out of poor research to go with the edited versions for the release, then I would blame Shout! 100% for an inexcusable poor-quality release.

Bottom line to me seems that unless someone here works for Shout! and can definitely answer these questions, we're all speculating on this issue.

OT here (again ) but it seems to me that we on this Bd tend often to say nothing when a particular release or releases are outstanding from one of the non-major studios.

I can name several releases from Image that, to me, are excellent releases of late 50's-60's shows: Combat!, Dick Van Dyke, Naked City (wow, Bob...I just finished watching one of those

Thanks "8 million" )

Just some things to consider.

Jeff "I wonder what Robert Young would have said about all of this" W.

 

[RobertGr]

Great posts Steve, Gary, Jeff and all! The other point we need to consider is that SHOUT FACTORY has been through this ringer before on the OZZIE AND HARRIET situation, do you think they want that to all happen again? And Hank so you are so sure the prints are from Robert Young's estate and not Sony. I will try to contact Sony after they return from the holiday break most are on! I hope you will try to get the down low too instead of just speculation.

 

[Joe Lugoff]

Thanks, Hank! I totally agree with you.

Those of you who support releases with cut prints: What do you gain in the long run? You'll just encourage more of the same.

What we need to do is NOT support this and TELL THEM WHY so maybe they'll say, "This might sell well, IF we do it right." Otherwise they very well might be saying, cynically, "Why should we spend extra time and money on this when most people won't know the difference if they're cut or not?"

TELL THEM we know and TELL THEM we care, that's what I say.

 

[Gary OS]

Joe, I understand the argument you are making. I really, really do. But there are a couple of reasons why I'm choosing NOT to agree with you as it pertains to this release.

1) This is one of my all-time favorite shows and I'd like to own it on dvd.

2) This show is NOT going to be on TV again. We all know that.

3) I have no other access to this show, so this is a matter of something being better than nothing.

4) We both know that telling Shout "no" (by not purchasing this set) isn't going to help the cause for this show. It just isn't. If this doesn't sell it's not going to get a second chance. Period. You've said as much yourself in this thread.

5) Many of the people in this thread, not you necessarily, seem to have a cavalier attitude about this particular series because they already have it in their private collections. So it's not that big a deal to them. But it is to those of us who didn't have the means to tape in the 80's or early 90's.

The bottom line is that I can appreciate the sentiment in your argument. But it's not going to help this set out to boycott it. It's not like Sony is going to pick it up in a year after Shout can't sell it. That's not going to happen, and we both know it. So this comes down to something very simple: Either the show is important enough to us to have in some form, or it can be a "sacrificial lamb" offered back to the studios so that others may benefit. Now, if you asked me to forgo some silly modern show for such a cause, I'd be right there with you. Let the consumers sacrifice "Buffy" or "Angel" or "Stacked" or any one of a hundred other series. I'll gladly NOT buy those series to make the point. But not FATHER KNOWS BEST. I'm not willing to let it die for some greater cause. Fact is the older, vintage shows are my cause so it makes no sense for me to try and purposely see one of those vintage series go under by NOT buying it. No way! It's not worth it and it's not gonna do a bit of good to boycott it.

Gary "sorry to be so blunt, but this is the way I feel" O.

 

[Elena S]

Gary, bravo, and I completely agree with your last post. Getting FKB in ANY form is a miracle, if you ask me. On a show this old, we have no real way of knowing if the original uncut versions are even available.

Hey, if I'm starving and a man offers me some mashed potatoes instead of a full meal I'm not gonna reject it. I'll take what I can get.

 

[RobertGr]

Bravo Gary! And Hank I see your point too but this is all based on hearsay. I feel strongly that SHOUT does not want to replay the flogging they took on OZZIE AND HARRIET and there are some positive signs especially that HAZEL appeared from SONY in UNCUT versions. So what is not to say they have do not have UNCUT versions of FKB in their vaults. Also the prints that are in syndication have the Columbia TV logo at the end and when Sony had the vote for the series to be released on their site a few years back they included FKB. So they do have prints in their vaults one thing that might have held up the release in getting the state of Robert Young on board for the release. We should all send our concerns to SHOUT and do everything to encourage them to do this right not threaten not to buy the show when issued.

 

[Jeff Willis]

Great analogy, Elena! Says it all for me about this release.

Joe, like Gary, I hear what you're saying. I hear Hank too. And if you guys were referring to 99 other shows out there, I'd agree. The big point here, to me, is INFORMATION. Unless someone here either presently works for Shout! or has a RELIABLE inside contact (at Shout!...not a general industry source) about what is or is not available to Shout! to work with for this release, it's all guesswork. In this case, I refer to a reasonably-priced available commodity. If the original owner is requiring "Ft Knox" to access their uncut prints and Shout! declined, that's the way it is. I'd not be

'ing about it but I'd guess that if most of us owned a business and were in the same position having to make a similar decision, what would we do?

True, as Hank seems to be saying, the law of averages may seem to point that the uncut prints of this series are still out there, but as mentioned previously, at what price to an independent for the distribution fee and at what price for any restoration that may be required for a decent xfr release?

As has been suggested here also, I wonder what percentage of the posters here already have this series in their collections from the VHS days or other sources? I assume for the sake of argument here, that most, like myself, don't. It's a lot easier to take a "no sale" stand on a series if one already has it at home. If one doesn't and still takes the no-sale stand, then all I can say is you're a tougher guy than myself And, in most other cases, I'd most likely be standing with you.

 

[Hank Dearborn]

No one is saying they don't have uncut prints in their vaults. Shout doesn't want film prints, they want already transfered tape masters. That is what Shout wants to use because it's cheap and less work. That's what they did with Ozzie and Harriet and it's what they are doing with Ironside and McHale's Navy. And I never said anything about boycotting the release. I've bought cut shows such as Branded, Guns of Will Sonnett and Real McCoys. I'm not happy about it but there is no other way to get them and in the case of Real McCoys, it's not that important a show to me to go crazy over. But what I think should be done, this far in advance, is for people to start swamping Shout with calls, letters and emails expressing displeasure. I'm unhappy but I'm buying it anyway isn't gonna carry much weight. I'm unhappy, I'm not buying it and I'm going to spread the word to everyone I know not to buy it, now that might get their attention.
Gary, if you really care about the show, don't let these people get away with a substandard release. At least try to fight for your show to be done properly.

 

[Hank Dearborn]

I don't consider Combat an excellent release. For all but the 5th season they refused to go back to the original prints and used the Worldvision timesped videotapes made almost 25 years ago. The shows aren't even sped to the same length coming in anywhere from 46 minutes to 49 minutes. I would settle for time sped Father Knows Best but I believe they are cut for time rather than sped.

 

[Gary OS]

Hank, I appreciate the explanation. And like Joe, I can appreciate the sentiment of trying to "send a message" by not purchasing something we might feel is inferior, and encouraging others not to purchase it either. My only point is that I flat out don't believe it will make any difference with this show. I don't believe deciding NOT to buy this release, and encouraging others NOT to buy it, will make a bit of difference with this series. It may help other series down the road, but it will do nothing for FATHER KNOWS BEST other than keep the remaining 5 seasons from being released. Because I firmly believe that no other company is going to invest in this show and attempt to release it. I may be wrong on that, but I do believe it's a logical assumption. If an older show like this doesn't sell, I doubt Shout, or Sony, or anyone else is going to care why it didn't sell. They just aren't going to bother with it any more. And since I don't have this show in my collection, and have yet to find a collector willing to help me with it, this is my only shot at a beloved show that means an awful lot to me.

Hope that explains my position. If I thought there was a good chance that sending a message to Shout would bring a quick turnaround with this show I'd be all for it. But I just don't believe boycotting it is going to help, so I'll take what I can get. Like I've said before, with many other shows I wouldn't take this stand, but this one is too rare and important for me to play around with. I'd be much more inclined to boycott something like THE REAL MCCOYS, because it's not that great of a series, IMHO, to begin with.

Gary "take care, and no hard feelings" O.

 

[Ivan G]

Reminds me of the old William Faulkner quote: "Given a choice between Scotch and nothing, I'll take Scotch."

 

[Jeff Willis]

I respect your opinion on Combat! but since the set contained the non-edited (no missing footage) versions it was a must-have for me. The T/C issue has never bothered me as the PAL issue doesn't either. I put Combat! in my "outstanding" category due to the uncut xfrs and the Extras, menus, etc. I'm just glad that I didn't have to make the tough "cut eps" decision on this buy. Some of the S1-4 episodes escaped the T/C monster though.

About FKB, I'll join in on any organized attempt to get Shout's! attention about the issues but, like Gary said, I don't see it making a difference although there have been cases in this business where a small group of people that championed a series getting to DVD made the difference in rare instances. Interestingly, Combat! was one example of that happening.

 

[Hank Dearborn]

What about the cut episode set Shout put out for Ozzie and Harriet? We don't see them doing any more and I'm sure many people bitched and complained about the release. And, I don't know if it will happen or not, but I can tell you there is at least one other company investigating the property and wants to do it right. So, if that can happen with O&H, which is a show that has had nowhere near the exposure and popularity in syndication that FKB has had, then even if Shout stops after one season, I'm sure there are other independents that would jump at the chance to pick it up. There are not that many well-known, viable properties that are available to these companies. Warner, Fox, MGM, Paramount - none of these studios license out their shows. Only Universal does, but, for elements they either provide decades old tape transfers or the licensee has to coble together their own prints from 16mms that have wound up in collector's hands. So, no, do not make the assumption that it's Shout or nobody. Make Room for Daddy, while a longer running show, has not had the same type of syndication exposure as FKB and that is getting a second chance done right after a botched first release. If that doesn't tell you something, I don't know what would. But look at all of the independents thirsting for product - Shout, MPI, VCI, Smore, Timeless, Infinity, BCI, Rhino, Image and I'm sure a few more I'm forgetting. Most of those companies have done wonderful releases. And, another thing, when has Shout even shown they will complete a long running series? That Girl, stalled after 3 seasons, The Bill Cosby Show, abandoned after one. Who knows how far they'll go with Ironside.

Another point, after people squawked over the cut episodes on The Cosby Show, Roseanne and Too Close for Comfort, to name 3 examples, the companies took heed and corrected the problem with their next releases. But the squawking didn't start until after it was too late for the first season. Here, we have a 3-month window to try to be heard BEFORE the cut release comes out. How about we band together, instead of bickering amongst ourselves, and try to do something NOW? Forget the wait and see attitude. Once they've mastered the shows and it's put on the market that way, it'll be too late. The time to try to do something about this is now, not after the set comes out. Squawking then won't accomplish a thing, except maybe for season two. If we want to try to save season one, let's speak up now!

 

[Joe Lugoff]

(Whoops -- the following repeats some stuff Hank just said, as I didn't read Hank's entry before I typed mine. Well, great minds think alike, right?)

It seems we're all repeating ourselves now, but as for this being the "only chance" with FKB, we have the "Make Room for Daddy" precedent where Season Five used cut prints, but Season Six supposedly won't.

So they do have changes of heart, and it's possible the Danny Thomas people read this very forum and found out that Season Five sales were hurt by using cut prints.

So it's possible that FKB Season One will be cut, but Season Two won't be -- so why not just do Season One right in the first place? Which they won't do unless they're told that's what we want!

Now, whether that will maximize their profit is another story. As Hank is pointing out, using cut prints is not at all a necessity -- it's the cheapest way to go, because those already exist as video transfers. They may have done an analysis already that tells them even though using cut prints will result in lower sales, it will maximize profit, because the expense of making new transfers of uncut prints won't be covered by what they predict will be a small increase in sales.

It's just a sad fact in this world that the majority of consumers don't really know (or care) what they're getting. I recently had someone tell me they were getting "Mama's Family" Season One on sale at Target, and I took a breath to tell him it utilizes cut prints, but stopped because I didn't want to hear him say, "What are those?" or even worse, "Who cares?" (I've had that happen with "Alf" -- a shrug and a look that said, "You must be neurotic to care about such a thing." Of course, I'm thinking, "You must be stupid not to," but that's just me.)

It's a shame we TV fans have to put up with this at all. Can you imagine the uproar from movie fans if movies were released in the cut, censored versions that were once used on TV?

 

[Gary OS]

Ah, see I had no idea any other company was seriously looking into OZZIE & HARRIET. Had I known that, or better yet had another company already picked that show up I'd have been more inclined to agree with the sentiment that says let's really make an effort to let Shout know we want things changed or else. But O&H was one of the releases I was thinking of when I mentioned it was this or nothing, because I didn't know another studio was looking into it. Generally, when it comes to these older shows (MAKE ROOM FOR DADDY being the major exception) I tend to think they will get one and only one shot. So I'm much more apt to say let's get something while the gettin's good.

See, I'm concerned that the entire TVonDVD market is headed for a slowdown in general, and I'm afraid if we don't get these shows now we will not have a second chance. Maybe that's just the pessimist in me. I don't know. But I do feel that shows like FATHER KNOWS BEST need to be released sooner rather than later, based on demographics alone. Every day that passes is more than likely to result in less fans being around to buy these vintage shows, not more fans. People today are too interested in modern fare, so I'm concerned we will see a slowdown amongst the studios when it comes to offering older, classic series. Does that explain a part of my thinking on this thing? It's a fear issue for me as much as anything else. A fear that says if we don't get something now, we will never get it. Again, I may be wrong on that front. But that's a big part of my thinking right now.

I do agree that we've seen some changes to series (ala the 1st Season of THE COSBY SHOW), but I had the impression that was more the result of there being strong advocates in positions of authority and power interested in doing the show right, which I fear FATHER KNOWS BEST wouldn't have. I'm concerned that the voices we have wouldn't be enough to make a difference. We need someone in a position of authority/power to get the message across. An advocate for FATHER KNOWS BEST (and other vintage properties). I fear without those people nothing positive will result from any type of boycott.

Gary "I do see the point in making a fuss now, while there is still time this first set might be saved (if they are indeed going for syndicated prints) - that's a fine idea and I have voiced my concern to Shout" O.

 

[Steve...O]

There's a nice article from Home Media Magazine about this release here.

Near the end there is this interesting comment:



This perhaps suggests that one single episode may not be in its original form. Nothing was said about the set using edited episodes so hopefully this is the situatioin that caused the rumors of edited episodes to start.

Perhaps one of our FKB resident experts can chime in on this episode and why the original may have been lost?

Steve

 

[RobertGr]

Steve Great detective work on getting the piece from Lorrie Shapiro. She is a great pro and you are right the way it is worded gives us hope for unedited version save the episode referenced!

I can tell you the show has been one of the most requested dvd releases and I am very happy all parties came together. I think this will be a breakout smash on dvd as it is 110 percent pure Americana!

 

[DeWilson]

There's one extra mixxing from this set - there's an episode of FORD THEATER, "Keep it in The Family" that was the psudo-pilot for the tv series.

Although the family was named Warner, the dynamics of the family and characters were what eventully became the tv version of "Father Knows Best" which was different from the radio series.

 

[Joe Lugoff]

I know when TVLand showed episodes of FKB a few years ago (almost all of them from this first season), one or two were actually taken from one of those flashback episodes of later seasons.

FKB had quite a few of those "flashback" episodes. I think it was mainly because Robert Young didn't want to make a new show every week.

Speaking of which, here's something else that's very rare, and should be included on a Second Season set, if we ever get one:

When moving to NBC for the Second Season, Robert Young said he'd rather not do FKB every week, but mix in some other types of shows, just so he wouldn't get tired of playing the same character every week. (He had preceded the TV series with six years of playing Jim Anderson on the radio.)

This great experiment lasted exactly one episode (the ratings must have fallen off terribly.)

I see this episode is actually listed among the FKB episodes on TV.Com. It was on December 7, 1955, right in between "Margaret's Premonition" and "Bad Influence." It was a Western called "Stage to Yuma." TV.Com speculates it was a pilot for a Western series, but I remember reading in an old TV Guide from 1955 that it was what I said above -- Robert Young's request to do something different occasionally.

If Shout! is on the ball, it will be in a Second Season set. Being pessimistic, with usually good reason, I have a feeling it's long gone or at least they'll say it is.