FATHER KNOWS BEST - Coming in April '08 (1 Viewer)

[PianoPlayer]

The unedited 25-minute episodes do exist -- I don't know the condition of the original negatives, but they shouldn't be THAT scarce.

Since Sony had talked about releasing this a few years ago, and their HAZEL release used 100% complete prints ...

 

[Jeff Willis]

I can hear a groan in Fla about this news. I sure hope your contacts are wrong, Hank. Although I'd bet you heard the right news about this one.

I am not happy for the FKB fans out there. It's not one of my favorite series but I always pull for any TV/DVD release that's done right, particularly the 50's-60's series.

Does anyone know whether or not the unedited (as originally aired) prints are still available for remastering?

I guess the farther back we go with the 50's series, the harder it is to find original properly-stored prints to work with for a DVD release. If only they could all be like the Perry Mason or Untouchables sets.

 

[Gary OS]

You heard that all the way out in Texas, huh Jeff?

In all seriousness, I have been concerned that this would be the case since early on. Although I hated having to see this discussed just minutes after the initial news came out (I felt it was raining on the parade, so to speak), I must admit my concern has been growing as each day passed and we didn't get a definitive answer about this from Shout's board. The silence has been deafening.

Having said all that, I stand by my original comments about buying the set regardless. Boycotting isn't going to accomplish anything so I'm not going to deny myself the pleasure of this series to try and prove a point. With the vast majority of shows uncut episodes would be a "must", but this one is now too rare to pass up. It isn't coming back on TV so there's no use not buying these sets (let's hope there's more than one). And since collectors that say they have the full run are unwilling to share with others (and you know who you are - even on this board because I've personally communicated with you in the past about this particular series), this is the best we are going to have.

Gary "I'm going to be tremendously disappointed if this happens, but since it's either this or nothing I'm taking this!" O.

 

[MatthewA]

It is probably because there are no film-to-video transfers of unedited episodes and neither Shout! nor the Robert Young Estate want to foot the bill (or perhaps neither could afford it on their own). They could always share the costs, but that would be too logical.

This release wasn't that high on my list, but I would have bought it if the quality was good. Now if what Hank is saying is true it's on the no-touch list.

 

[Joe Lugoff]

Well, we knew it when they went on and on about this release without once mentioning words such as "complete," "uncut," "original" or "restored".

That's that: I'm shouting to Shout! "No Sale!" and I'm one of FKB's biggest fans. And this means it will never be done right in my lifetime, if ever. :frowning:

 

[Steve...O]

This would be very disappointing if true and would explain why Shout! has been very silent on this topic. It probably means that this will be a one and done release since sales, which probably weren't going to be that high to begin with, will only be hurt by this news. This is especially true if consumers don't pre-order but wait until reviews come in for confirmation.

It's unfortunate that shows like OZZIE & HARRIET and FKB were owned by the actors and their Estates since it is painfully obvious they simply didn't have the knowledge/resources to properly preserve them. By contrast, 50 year old 35mm prints of PERRY MASON which were owned by CBS look pristine on DVD in their original full length.

Steve

 

[Gary OS]

Well, I guess we can hope that Shout just completely pulls this from their schedule. After all, since none of you guys are going to buy it they might as well just shut it down. :rolleyes

In all seriousness, I'd love Shout to reconsider and release the show uncut. But if it means vastly inferior prints then we'd be right back at where we started - sales would suffer and we probably wouldn't see any more sets. So it seems to me that we are in a danged if you do and danged if you don't position. A no win proposition.

Gary "too bad this news, and this thread, has become so dreary" O.

 

[Hank Dearborn]

Well, I don't know if it would do a lick of good but all of us on here who have commented should start barraging Shout Factory with letters, calls and emails giving them a piece of our minds. But speaking to a friend who was involved with them on a music project, I can tell you what his experience was. He is someone who has been involved in the music industry for years, at one time heading up the reissue division of a major label. In addition to putting together many compilations, he has written liner notes for hundreds of CDs. Shout wanted him to do the liner notes for a British invasion package they were doing. Now, this "British invasion" CD featured songs by such "British" acts as The Seekers (Australian), Easybeats (Australian), Los Bravos (Spanish) and Walker Brothers (American). So much for knowing what they are doing. They then criticized his notes as being too intelligent for their PBS target audience. He came away from dealing with them saying they are a bunch of know-nothing 20 year olds who really don't give a shit.

Getting back to the subject at hand, people need to stop thinking that any of these cut releases have anything whatsoever to do with missing prints, damaged prints, etc. Believe me, all of the 35mm negs and fine grains exist on FKB, Ozzie, Real McCoys, Make Room for Daddy, My Favorite Martian, Alf, etc. The only thing it comes down to is if the company doing the DVDs wants to spend the money to do the transfers from film or do they want to do it as cheaply and lazily as possible and use whatever tape transfers are handy. People need to stop buying this bullshit about why companies do this. They do it because 99% of the buying public doesn't know and doesn't care about cut vs uncut. You get certain people, like Smore Entertainment, who actually care about the type of release they put their name on but most of these companies couldn't care less. Every dime they save on putting out a quality product is a dime more profit. I don't know if going after Shout Factory will accomplish anything but I am all for getting everyone we can together and making their lives hell.

 

[Jeff Willis]

Steve,

Thanks for the input on the question that I had about original prints' availability. I was curious about this regarding mainly the 50's series. If, as Hank posted, all of these show's uncut (as originally aired) prints are still available, I don't have sympathy with the studios on this subject. I suspect, as Hank said, that the studio's have no real reason for concern as most of their target consumer base isn't concerned (or is unaware) about the issue that we here care about, "cut vs un-cut".

As for me, since I'm not in the FKB "grail" group here, I can only speak for myself about any upcoming release. I might buy S1 even edited if I know that the xfrs will be watchable. Of course, the "watchability" factor is subjective to an individual so it's a decision we have to make for each TV/DVD set. All I know is there's a "line" for xfrs that I won't cross after trying a couple of recent buys where I can't enjoy the show due to the xfr issue.

As a relative new-comer TV/DVD collector, I've learned a lot from you guys here regarding this DVD xfr angle. When I first started buying these things (DVD's) I had the inaccurate assumption that, due to the nature of the optical media, the consumer would be assured of near-pristine xfrs to DVD for all, or 99% of all TV/DVD sets. During the past 2-3 years, I've learned that it's "only as good as the source mat'l", which I suppose I knew beforehand but, like many others that don't post here, I was "caught up" somewhat with the potential of the (DVD) media. As I've posted previously, I'm not after "perfection" , ie Fugitive, Perry Mason, Untouchables, but I also expect somewhat presentable xfrs for even the older shows.

Having said that, if we take Hank's post as "gospel" regarding uncut show's avaibility, and if it's true that "anything can be remastered to approach the xfr Q of, say, the Perry Mason sets", then we as TV/DVD buyers should expect at least that much from these older-series sets. Just my 2-cents on the issues. If "Studio X" releases more of the older series with xfrs that are "borderline", then I can't justify buying those sets any longer. If I end up not having "Series X" then that's something I can live with given that alternative.

Another way I'd put it, is..."Where there's a will there's a way" (for these studios to release an acceptable product). I know it's a business, but maybe they're losing a little more business than they realize afer the online reviews of a given release reveal sub-par xfr Q. I've become a considerably more cautious TV/DVD buyer lately and if I'm not familiar with a given show, I now wait for either online reviews or posts here or PM's/E-mail's, phone contact info before buying blind-buys or a release that's not coming from one of the major studios.

OT here, but I'm currently watching the miniseries "Masada" and although the xfrs aren't pristine for this release, it falls into the "easily watchable" group for me. I remember there were posts here about the poor xfrs for this release. It goes to show that it's a very subjective criteria for collectors.

Jeff "Believe me, I'm not in any way trying to jinx the FKB release nor am I trying to organize a boycott" W

 

[Joe Lugoff]

Given the choice of pristine cut prints and inferior (within reason) uncut prints, I always go with the uncut prints, because we will never see these old shows uncut again except on DVD.

What's really sickening about this FKB potential fiasco is (and I'm repeating myself here) this show was re-edited about 20 years ago to make it more "contemporary." All the beautiful 1950s fades and dissolves were replaced with jump cuts!

If THAT'S what Shout! will be releasing, I'll not only not buy it, I'll have to pretend it doesn't even exist in order to keep my blood pressure down.

 

[RobertGr]

I am a huge fan of all your posts including Steve's and Hank's but I think we need to take a breath and stand back and let's see what we hear from Shout as we get into the New Year. I received an e-mail from a contact there once the rumors started circulating about the set. At that time I was told they were just starting to receive the masters and had not gone through them yet. Now the one thing we might have in our favor is the prints should be coming from Sony's vaults and look at HAZEL, BEWITCHED, FLYING NUN, PARTRIDGE FAMILY aren't these all uncut episodes?

A while back I had actually gotten a call from one of the legal reps of Sony asking me for info on a bootleg set I had seen advertised. They are indeed interested in protecting the property so I would hope they also treated the film elements fairly well. On OZZIE AND HARRIET the prints were used that were originally used on DISNEY in the late 80's and mid 90's and the Nelson family owns the series and all material so the blame for chopping should squarely rest on their shoulders fans that are upset should send their comments to Dave Nelson maybe he would authorize the show being restored to UNCUT status.

I am a stickler for UNCUT product but with FKB I will support the release because I have always loved the shows and I grew up watching it in the late 60's on NY's WPIX then in the 80's on THE FAMILY CHANNEL and I probably never saw any version but syndicated runs.


SHOUT FACTORY please inform us though if UNCUT masters are being sought if not please reach out the the fans who have so generously offered their UNCUT prints!!!!!!

 

[Mitchum22]

Joe, I've been collecting this series for a long while, trying to restore the original running times by culling different syndication prints(TV Land, CBN, etc) into one, and I never knew about the MTV-style re-edit. But it sure makes sense, because sometimes you will see the original dissolves. (And I agree with you, dissolves and fades are a lovely part of film grammer. Getting rid of them is like getting rid of commas and semicolons.)

That is very sad -- if expected -- news from Hank. If true, how could this set not be "one and done"?

 

[Gary OS]

Thanks Robert. I'm happy that someone is speaking some sense here, instead of just venting hatred toward Shout. Look, I want the uncut prints in the worst way, and like others have said I'd take uncut prints that were decent over pristine cut prints. But I don't think we can throw all the blame at Shout on this one. Remastering is terribly expensive and they probably already feel like this set isn't going to bring them a lot of money. So they are going to go with whatever is provided to them.

If people on this board have great looking, uncut prints in their private collection then please contact Shout yourself (it's not that hard to get in contact with them) and offer them your prints. Let the rest of us enjoy the show too instead of just bragging about having these prints and then withholding them from the rest of us. That smacks of an elitism and selfishness that boggles my mind. So if you've got uncut prints, for the sake of all that is right and good contact Shout immediately and let them know.

Gary "I'm tired of hearing from people that say they have this series complete or near complete yet have no desire to share that blessing with others" O.

 

[Steve...O]

Agree with Gary's post above. If it turns out that edited prints are used, it will not be Shout's problem. They can only deal with what they are given and they shouldn't be expected to take a loss on these sets by "reinventing the wheel" and doing complete restorations/remasters for a product that probably isn't going to move a lot of units in comparison to a more recent show that will have a lot more buyers.

Hopefully Shout did at least do their due diligence and made inquiries before hand about what was available and if the uncut prints were accessible. They should also disclose up front if they are releasing edited episodes.

There is a ray of hope though: Robert's great post shows that Sony apparently does have uncut prints and does have interest in protecting their legal rights on these.

Shout reps actively participate in the forum on their website. Now that this concern has been raised hopefully they will chime over the next week so that we can deal with facts rather than rumor. I want nothing more than for this release to succeed. If is doesn't then the chances of Shout and other indies tackling other 50s/60s family friendly shows will probably vanish.

Steve

 

[Joe Lugoff]

Actually, even if Season One is botched up, there's still some hope that it won't be "one and done" and Season Two will be done correctly.

I base that on "Make Room for Daddy"/"The Danny Thomas Show," Season Five, which used cut prints (and which I didn't get) and miraculously Season Six is due out soon, supposedly with uncut prints, although only time will tell on that one. We might be in for another disappointment.

 

[Gary OS]

WORD to everything Steve has said. I don't see how we can throw all the blame at Shout!_Factory if syndicated prints are used. They're a smaller company and can only go with what they are given. How can we expect them to foot the bill on remastering what may be very worn uncut prints when Sony wouldn't do it? I just think that's being unfair to Shout! in this instance. At least they are attempting something with this classic show. Better than Sony would have done. And like I said, if you guys on this board have uncut prints you should be calling Shout! and volunteering to loan them those prints (assuming all the legal mumbo jumbo would allow for such a thing). But let's not crucify Shout as if it's all on them. Sony has a part to play in this thing to, and the Young Estate apparently plays a role as well.

I still say this is a no-win situation, unless Sony (who has the money to do it right) gets more involved by remastering the original uncut episodes, assuming they really do exist. If Shout releases cut episodes, no matter how nice they look, people aren't going to buy it and it will fail. If Shout releases uncut episodes that look like garbage (ala the ROUTE 66 set) then people aren't going to keep buying and it will fail. So it's a no win situation at this point. The only way it can succeed is if someone pours a ton of money into remastering the originals - again, assuming they really do exist as a whole. Shout can't afford to do that with this series. It's just not practical on their part. Sony could afford to do it but they aren't going to because they don't care about their vintage series. So unless some private investor gets involved, or this becomes a labor of love for some small company, it's unlikely we will ever see pristine, uncut prints.

Gary "and that's why I'm buying this release regardless - it's not like you will be seeing this uncut on any tv station in the future - it's either this or nothing for those of us that don't have private collections already" O.

 

[Jeff Willis]

Gary, Steve, I agree with your posts and I'm in for S1 if the xfrs are decent enough (for me) to watch and enjoy the set. Although FKB isn't on my "grail" list I want to support this one for friends here. Besides, this one will represent the earliest-era release in my collection. (I never thought I'd have seen the day where I'd go back past the late 50's for these sets. It's you guy's fault Gary, Bob, Mike S, you all are to blame. One word: Fugitive...unbelievable show! Bob, that Naked City set's awesome!. Steve, thanks for the tips over on the film Bd!).

You guys try to remember my support here when those R1 "bionic series" sets get here (that'll be when the 1st manned mission lands on Mars).

Sometimes it's difficult for us TV/DVD collectors to separate the emotionalism from these posts and remember that it's a business for the studios.

I also agree that it would be a good thing for Shout! to give us some advanced info on this release but if they decide to keep details (ie cut prints, unrestored) confidential prior to the street date I'd understand, but not agree If they release that sort of info before the release, anyone guess on what the results would be for sales #'s, if the info were "we're using edited prints, unrestored" ? I also assume that they understand that, if it turns out that this is the case for S1, the word would get around fast on the 'net. How much that would impact the #"s is anyone's guess. More and more I'm realizing that I'm in a small minority as a 99% online buyer who, if a particular release is unknown to me or it's not from a major studio, I'll wait for some posts here or an online review before buying the set.

Gary, thanks for going out on that "R66" limb for me I admit I "chickened out" in an earlier post but that one falls into the "unacceptable xfr" group for me. I don't like to mention it too much in deference to the R66 fans here. I am glad that it's seen at least the beginnings of a series release for the fans of that series. I admire them for being able to get through the xfrs on that set.

As you said, it sometimes appears as a "catch 22" situation for the studios that take a chance on some of the older series which, for either cost-prohibitive reasons or lack of availibility from the original liscense owner, can't obtain the original master mat'l for their release.

Should they keep on "pitching" in the game with a plate umpire that calls an erratic unpredictable strike zone? Hard to answer. As you said (Gary), this release is most likely the only way we'll be able to see FKB in our lifetime.

Jeff "Regardless of how FKB turns out, it's been a great 3 yrs as a collector on this Bd for me" W.

 

[PianoPlayer]

I'm sure hoping brick-and-mortar stores will be carrying this ... if it's relegated to only online retailers, many people who'd otherwise buy it (for nostalgia or "impulse buy") won't know about it.

 

[Gary OS]

Agreed Jeff. I've meant a number of great guys here, and wouldn't give that up for anything.

Gary "take care, everyone" O.

 

[Hank Dearborn]

I'm kind of chuckling at what this post has degenerated into. Shout doesn't need collectors to loan them 16mm prints to run. They are perfectly capable of pulling the prints themselves from either the Young vaults (as they are doing with the Window On Main Street pilot) or from Sony. If they want to transfer from film elements they have access to such. What they are doing is taking the already transfered videotapes, with edits, and using those because it's a lot easier and less work.

For the person who said that there shouldn't be a problem because Sony put out their shows complete, that has nothing to do with this. Sony isn't releasing this, Shout is. Apples and oranges. What one company does has absolutely no bearing on what another one does.

Someone brought up Make Room for Daddy. Well, the show had to go to another company to get the next season done properly. If what you're saying is after Shout messes this up, it may get picked up by someone else and done right, yes, that is possible.

I have a question. Why are people so quick to make excuses for these companies? I work in the television industry and I am also acquainted with key people at at least 4 independent DVD companies. While there are some rare instances where a cut episode can't be helped (like Jim Bowie, where there were 3 episodes they couldn't locate originals on), 99% of the time it is due to the company not giving a shit. Like, when someone puts a tape in, there is a slate at the beginning of every episode which will say something like DOMESTIC SYNDICATION MASTER, TRT (total running time): 22:00. And then when they say, they didn't know and people believe them. Well, unless the people running the tapes can't read, it's not likely. And by the way, it does not cost a fortune to run copies off of clean 35mm prints. Especially if you are dealing with black and white shows and they don't have to do color correction. Stop making excuses and put the blame where it belongs.