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Discussion in 'After Hours Lounge (Off Topic)' started by Ockeghem, Jun 8, 2012.
Per the OP's request, this thread is now closed.
At his request and after some discussions with the OP, we have decided to re-open the thread.
Please understand that the administration of the forum will continue to keep a close eye on the content of the thread. We don't want to see the conversation devolve into areas other than the thread's intent.
The OP has made a few things quite clear.
1.) He is NOT a medical doctor.
2.) He is NOT advocating fasting for anyone (let alone everyone).
3.) He is simply recounting his own experiences with fasting and answering questions that others may have about the practice based on his own personal experiences and research.
Also, please know that the staff at the Home Theater Forum is not advocating on behalf of fasting and that anyone considering an extreme change in their nutritional lifestyle should always seek the advice and counsel of their physician.
Thanks. And, carry on...carefully.
Dave,That's an excellent question. No, I've never thought of doing that before. I have also never played Sudoku. I wonder if something similar might work. For example, playing another game (e.g., chess) or perhaps doing something kinesthetic?
I also am curious if playing some Bach fugues (manual dexterity) on the harpsichord or piano would be something that could be measured/quantified in the way you suggest. I do know that I have my good and my bad days playing Bach whether I am fasting or not.
I meant to PM Scott over the weekend to talk things through but I simply have been too tied up with other things. Sorry I didn't get around to that, and I'm glad this thread is back. Will shoot ya a PM when I get free Scott! On the topic at hand I've expressed my doubts and will settle back into read only for now.
Well, I'm into the second week of my 3:4 routine. Intermittent fasting (most of the variations) has over the years been somewhat more difficult for me to do than doing longer fasts. But I am determined this time to do it much more consistently, especially now since one of my longer fasting goals was accomplished between June 29th and August 10th. Onward and upward!
I did my normal five miles yesterday, and last night I had a rather rigorous karate class. My heart rate is usually around 168 (this is in the ballpark of 220 minus one's age) for the entire running and karate workouts, and it decreases to about 48-52 bpm about three or four hours later. After a couple of days of fasting, the glucose and glycogen stores are holding up rather well. I can go about five days and then ketosis kicks in, at which point I often decrease my training or break my fast if I want to continue to train.
One of my doctors told me that it's nearly impossible to maintain glycogen levels throughout the course of a standard (26.2 mile) marathon. I would have to agree, as I usually hit the wall (= depletion of most of the glycogen stores) around twenty-two miles. However, I did increase my training (mileage) for a couple of marathons back in the 1980s using the 'collapse point' method of training, and it's probably no coincidence that those ended up being the only two marathons in which I did not hit the wall.
Mike,You take the average amount of miles you run per-day each week (allowing for one day off per-week = rest day), multiple this number by three, and your collapse point (the point at which you hit the wall due most often to a depletion of all of your glucose and most if not all of your glycogen) ought to be around that mile point in a race.
My typical running schedule per-week (when I was using the collapse point method) was this:
Monday: 10 milesTuesday: 16 milesWednesday: 8 milesThursday: 10 milesFriday: 6 milesSaturday: 22 milesSunday: Rest daySo, totaling the number of miles per week (72), taking the average per day (12), and multiplying by three (36), I ought not to have hit the wall until I had run around 35-36 miles. Since a standard marathon is 26.2 miles, I was good to go for the 26.2 mile distance. And not only did I not hit the wall when maintaining this amount of weekly mileage, those were my two best marathon times to date.The downside to doing this for a non-elite runner (which I am) is that I could manage seventy-two miles per-week for about three or four months, but if I pushed too hard right after a successful marathon (where the temptation to run more and quicker mileage is really high and especially so if one has achieved a PR), I could injure myself doing that kind of mileage. Chronic fatigue is something I have experienced only once, and it ultimately resulted in my only running injury in over thirty-five years of long-distance running -- a stress fracture of my tibia, which took about six weeks to heal. (During my recuperation I took up swimming and worked up to five miles per-week, but I didn't enjoy that very much.)
As mentioned above, you need to check with your doctor before starting something like this.
I probably dove in to things a little to fast, but ended up very light-headed and dizzy. Just happened to see my doctor recently and he said absolutely no. My blood pressure went from deathly high, to completely normal over the past ten years.
Combined with good diet, exercise and a beta blocker, returned to completely normal, but often went below normal, causing some medical incidents with me.
BP med is at a very low, low dose, (in fact the lowest dose you can purchase, but doctor has me cutting that in half) but add in the fasting and I bottomed out with extremely low numbers.
I'm going to have to keep eating, but am going to the six days on, one day off routine, which should be pretty harmless. I also will go for a fairly calorie restricted diet, but will keep up two, maybe three meals a day, then probably do a much more gradual introduction to maybe a 5:2 ratio, etc.
This may just be my personal experience, but just went for it. Not a good idea for me, should have been a much slower introduction.
The odd part is I had "zero" appetite, and thought it would be a breeze, but the body had different ideas.
As with Scott, I am not a medical doctor, not pushing for people to fast, just recounting my experiences. Might help other people to see this from my beginning baby steps and see how I deal with things compared to Scott's years of experience.
Stan,What you've written sounds wise. My blood pressure was slightly high before I lost the 112 or so lbs. a few years ago. Since then, I've been at normal as far as that is concerned, except when I have it taken during the first reading. My doctor said that this is normal, as very few people like having it taken. So, before I leave my doctor's office, I have it taken again, and it's fine.
On somewhat of a related note, I did an experiment while fasting a few years ago. I gave up coffee completely for one month, to see if my heart rate changed (I continued to run during this time). The rate did not change appreciably. I was curious if it would, and it did not.
When your body has, as you say, different ideas, then you listen to it. As I said, you sound as though you're doing what is right. Incidentally, of all of the intermittent fasting routines out there, the 5:2 seems to work very well for many people. It's also the one that Aaron posted about above as having either heard or read about recently. Best wishes with whatever you choose to do.
They refer to it as "white coat syndrome". I was terrible at first, always stressed out will it be high, well of course it will because I'm worried about it.
After a few years it was just more of a "whatever" kind of attitude, and then I think they started getting more realistic readings.
One time I was even 80/50 before my first and so far only colonoscopy, hadn't even had any anesthetic yet, so they almost sent me home, but it was very stable so they went ahead. Not a full general anesthetic, but what they call moderate so apparently you can move around, do what the doctor says, etc. Thankfully for me, moderate means complete amnesia, no memory of what they were doing. Turned out well, so I'm good for ten years.
I tend to get into this almost Zen-like mode, just relaxed, no stress and my body follows my mind.
I've never done biofeedback, but do plan on starting it in the next few months, just for stress and anxiety control. Will be interesting to see how it turns out.
Aaron and Mike,
An interesting study on how fasting triggers stem cell regeneration.
That is interesting.
But is it as interesting as ice cream?
A thread re-awakens after almost a year and that's all you've go to say?
I greatly admire your discipline and dedication! I've done some research on fasting, and yes, there are important benefits. What I've learned though, is intermittent fasting is probably the best way to achieve these benefits. How this works is you stop eating at say, 7 pm and don't eat again until 11 am. The suggestion that breakfast should not be skipped has been largely refuted (especially the type of breakfast most people eat). This also works best when you're eating healthy foods during your eating "window". As for long distance running, I think there's compelling evidence that it is not healthy. From what I've found, it depresses the immune system and can cause thickening of the coronary arteries. Running 26 miles is the limit of human endurance. The messenger who delivered news of the battle between the Spartans and the Persians died immediately after his run. A sensible alternative would be what's called interval training. It involves a 3 minute warm up, followed by 30 seconds of intense activity followed by 60 seconds of rest, followed by another cycle of intensity. This pattern is repeated 8x and performed 3 days per week. It may be worth researching these options.
Vidiot,Thanks. I would have to agree with you regarding IF. I came to this conclusion about two years ago. I continue to do both types of fasting (IF and prolonged). I've done a fourteen-day fast, a couple of seven-day fasts, and a twenty-one day fast thus far this year, along with some two, three, and four-day fasts sprinkled between these. One of the benefits of IF over prolonged fasting is that glycogen will never have enough time or mileage to be depleted (unless one were to run around twenty or more miles every day). In other words, my long-distance running and my martial arts training can continue during IF, but after about two weeks of prolonged fasting I have to cut back. As I mentioned somewhere in this thread, keytones are the back-up system for vitals, and are not intended to sustain one during a marathon. (Interestingly however, one person I know on another Board says that he can run vast distances while in ketosis. I have not found this to be the case with me.)I love long-distance running, and will never cease doing it. I've run nearly 33,000 miles thus far in my lifetime (including several marathons), and I continue to feel wonderful. My medical examinations show that everything is fine with my heart and related systems. I am currently training to run a 50-miler (I have good friends who do this regularly). I actually work with one man who has run nine 100-mile races!
I've watched many of the "Naked and Afraid" episodes on the Discovery Channel.
Two people, dropped out in the middle of nowhere, the Amazon, jungles in Indonesia, etc. They're left alone for 21 days, no food, water, clothes, etc. Most of them end up essentially fasting (although starving is probably a better word). They drop tremendous amounts of weight, but seem to come out of the situation just fine. Some of them do wimp out and give up, even saw an Amazon episode where the guy gave up before even starting, they had to find another contestant.Probably not the best diet, but the human body does endure.Painful, but fairly quick, maybe I should apply.
Stan,Please do not apply. I enjoy your posts too much and would miss you if you were not here.
I would not be able to do what you described above, because when I fast I continue to drink plenty of water. I know there are people who do 'dry fasts,' but I am not one of them. The fasting doctors I have spoken to (in-person and online) do not advocate it. And the doctors who frequent the various fasting Boards on which I post are skeptical with regard to the benefits of dry fasting.
Edit: I may have misinterpreted what you wrote above. These people are left without food and water, but are they allowed to drink water if they find it somewhere?
They are allowed to drink water or whatever food they can find. But it's often contaminated and not safe, unless they can get a fire going and are able to boil it. Water in a river or stream may look clear, clean and wonderful, but you never know what monkeys, cows, birds, etc. have peed and pooped into it upstream. Ew!!!
I would never dry fast. Don't know the exact figures, but the body can go quite a while without food, as long as you're still drinking water. You end up pretty much dying very quickly without water, but without food you can go for quite a long time, as long as you still take in clean waterI will not be applying. Except for the usual pixelated areas, these people are naked. I may do a little nude sunbathing, but not on camera for the entire world to see..