Fall of the Roman Empire, El Cid, 55 Days at Peking (1 Viewer)

[Mark Anthony]

Patrick,
According to the Widescreen Museum site you mentioned (a site I have visited myself before...)
U L T R A P A N A V I S I O N 70
NEGATIVE SPECS:
Film Gauge: 65mm
Direction of travel: Vertical - five perforations - 24 fps
Camera Optics: 1.25X Anamorphic
Aperture Dimensions: 2.072" x .906"
Max Aspect Ratio: 2.76:1
PRINT SPECS: 70mm Roadshow Print
Film Gauge: 70mm
Direction of travel: Vertical - five perforations - 24 fps
Projector Optics: 1.25x Anamorphic
Aperture Dimensions: 1.912" x .870" nominal
Max Aspect Ratio: 2.76:1
Sound Format: Magnetic Six Track Stereo - L, LC, C, RC, R stage channels and mono surround channel
It says nothing about being shown in a lesser ratio, and if it was, it would have been composed in camera for 2.76:1 regardless if it was reduction printed or squeezed for 35mm showings, if not why didn't they shoot in normal 35mm scope @ 2.35 or 2.55:1, or even normal 65mm at an even lesser ratio of around 2.21:1?
And seeing as you used Ben-Hur as an example W M also said when showing a frame..."The chariot race as seen in the full 2.76:1 70mm aspect ratio."
And as for the Ben-Hur DVD, the reason the picture is cropped is because the transfer was made from 35mm reduction elements, already missing screen area, that were further matted to look as if we were getting a wider picture - had the transfer been taken from original 65mm materials or an un-reduced 35mm print, there would not be this problem.
MA

 

[Joseph Goodman]

...EC and CW and 50DIP were filmed 'flat' on 35mm stock, using the Technirama process -

Technirama was not a "flat" process (by the term flat, I assume you mean non-anamorphic). Technirama was an anamorphic process, using a 1.5x squeeze on an 8-perf horizontal 35mm negative (like Vistavision and still cameras).

 

[Patrick McCart]

Note the MAX. ratio. Yes, the negative has the full 2.76:1 image, but the widest screens were only 2.66:1 at the MOST. When a film such as Ben-Hur was filmed, the picture was always framed for a 2.55:1-2.66:1 ratio. The extra image on the sides are just left over because of the amount of anamorphic compression. Even the best 70mm venues in 1959 were showing Ben-Hur in the 2.55:1-2.66:1 range.

While a CinemaScope frame would look the same as 2.55:1 reduction print in 35mm of an Ultra Panavision film would look visually the same, the fact is...

The advantage of anamorphic 70mm is that you would get a frame the same size of CinemaScope AND you get an extremely sharp (and much less grainy) image.

The reason why Ultra Panavision was used was because 35mm reductions could be made by cropping part of the sides instead of cropping the top and bottom.

Besides 2001: A Space Odyssey (which actually was reduced slightly with matting on the sides to give the correct 2.21:1 aspect ratio), Super Panavision films were always cropped vertically when transfered to 35mm.

MGM's DVD for It's A Mad Mad MAd Mad World is 2.55:1. That's how the movie should look. On the other hand, their DVD of The Greatest Story Ever Told was transfered from 70mm, so they opted to show the entire image. The widest Ultra Panavision films should be shown should be 2.55:1.

 

[Mark Anthony]

Whilst U P 70 films may have been composed for a ratio less than the maximum 2.76:1 which was allowable (I have no proof to confirm or deny this, and I still haven't seen anyone supply any concrete information to prove this either..), that still doesn't get us away from the point of this thread and the questions which it has brought up...
Which is the OAR of TFOTRE which even if it is between 2.55-2.66 or even if they choose to show the whole exposed negative at 2.76:1, is still wider than the 2.35:1 on this R2 dvd, and hence it's not in OAR.
I would hope that Disney are creating and preserving new 65mm elements which can be used for said transfer, the results with digital clean-up should be breath-taking...
I'm intrigued to see what Disney will do - and let's hope we get a decent 4.0 discrete mix at the very least (utilising the 5 screen channels mixed down to three and a surround.
If Mr Robert Harris is reading this thread, I'm sure many of us would be gratefull for your thoughts on the matter and if you have any knowledge on how the preservations of these Bronston epics are coming along - if indeed they are...
MA
Oh and if anyone has 10 minutes to spare, they may enjoy reading about 70mm here... http://hjem.get2net.dk/in70mm/magazi.../splendour.htm

 

[Danny_N]

Mark,
The French DVD of FOTRE does not contain the 70MM Roadshow version (hence, no overture, intermission and exit music). I believe they used a 35MM reduction print in which case 2.35:1 is the correct aspect ratio for the DVD (see the widescreenmuseum).
As for the sound: all French releases of these 4 Bronston classics (El Cid , FOTRE, 55 Days, Circus World) feature an English MPEG-2 track. This is a sound format that was used exclusively in Europe on DVD's I believe. MPEG-2 can contain from 1 to 5.1 channels and the English tracks on the 4 French DVD's are in fact the same as you would get from a DD5.1 remix. I re-watched El Cid recently and it does have the directional dialogue you would expect (and some action on the rears - mostly music).
Just to give everybody an idea of how the French DVD's look like I've put up some pictures from FOTRE here:
http://www.geocities.com/hitch_fan2001/pics.html
and El Cid here:
http://www.geocities.com/hitch_fan2001/pics2.html
(hope that works as I am no expert at this stuff )
Although I own these French DVD's I am still anxiously waiting for proper Roadshow versions. They look and sound fine but those locked subtitles become quite annoying after a while.
Btw, wasn't El Cid fully restored with Scorcese's involvement in the early 1990's?

 

[Mark Anthony]

Hi Danny,
El Cid was restored with Mr Scorsese's involvement in the early 90's, but as an owner of the Criterion laserdisc that was transferred from a 35mm element resulting from that restoration, I can assure you that the results were disappointing in terms of artifacts and colour shifts(although restoring an independently owned title such as this was no easy task).
A 65mm source (please ), a modern day Hi-Def transfer and digital corrective techniques which are now in abundant use, should be able to correct the anomolies of the previous restoration (which did save the film ) and present the film on DVD admirabley.
And going back to TFOTRE the discussion was regarding OAR, not 35mm reduction ratio, and dependent on who you believe the shooting ratio for it was between 2.55-2.77:1....
...this means that at 2.35:1 the french DVD is not in OAR no matter what source they used, saying that becuase a 35mm print was used for the transfer (which was created from 65mm materials and cropped to between 10-20%) means it's in OAR is like saying a pan and scan at 1.33:1 is in OAR because it was originally transferred from 65mm materials and cropped...hopefully that makes sense
OAR as far as I'm concerned is the ratio the film was shot in, and the Director and DP intended it to be shown in - which in the case of a 70mm Roadshow Epic can be nothing else other than that.
According to the W M... http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/wide...isionspecs.htm
"(UP70)35mm reduction prints are taken from the center of the negative using an area of 1.619" x .865". "
As the camera aperture was 2.072" x .906" and the 70mm Roadshow print's were 1.912" x .870", this is concrete proof that the 35mm reductions were just that - copied from the centre of the 65mm Neg , cropping the sides in the process
Going back to Mr Mccart's point "Most 35mm anamorphic prints of Ultra Panavision films were matted so that when unsqueezed, the image would be 2.55:1." This means even if transferred from 35mm, the French DVD's are cropped...and if this acceptable, why did so many on this board complain about the cropping of Apocalypse Now and so many other DVd releases of films lensed by Mr Storraro from 2.35 down to 2.0 - a similar effect....
As for MPEG-2, I'm an englishman, so I'm well aware of that format...but is the 4 channel sound matrix encoded or discrete?
In any event, my sole concern is not for a technical debate (which has been informative if nothing else) but to see these films properly presented (and don't forget this could be the first time ever, in the case of some of them, outside of their original Roadshow showings)...which I'm sure we have a far better chance of given Disney's recent track record for catalogue releases (even with 65mm with Tron), than with any other studio bar Fox.
Regardless of the new supplemental materials, Roadshow music and the potential of a DTS audio track - the new elements used could blow these french dvd's picture quality out of the water (although I have to admit the screenshot's you've kindly provided are impressive) and the audio tracks, I would guess, are likely to be remixed too (Ben Hur's was) an effect which some loved and some didn't...
Regards to all
MA

 

[Douglas R]

I see that these three titles are being released by Village Roadshow on DVD in Australia on 20 February. No information on sound or picture format though.