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Epson introduces its most advanced Laser Projector to Date: Epson Pro Cinema 4K PRO-UHD LS12000 (1 Viewer)

Mark-P

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I was thinking the LS11000 would be good enough for me because I really didn’t need those 200 extra lumens, but then I found out that the LS12000 has double the contrast ratio (2,500,000:1 versus 1,200,000:1) of the LS11000. Now there’s no question which one I’ll have to get.
 

John Dirk

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I was thinking the LS11000 would be good enough for me because I really didn’t need those 200 extra lumens, but then I found out that the LS12000 has double the contrast ratio (2,500,000:1 versus 1,200,000:1) of the LS11000. Now there’s no question which one I’ll have to get.
Personally I wouldn't let that affect my decision as manufacturer's almost exclusively publish "On/Off" contrast ratios which are misleading and not indicative of what you'll actually see onscreen.
 

DaveF

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Personally I wouldn't let that affect my decision as manufacturer's almost exclusively publish "On/Off" contrast ratios which are misleading and not indicative of what you'll actually see onscreen.

I was thinking the LS11000 would be good enough for me because I really didn’t need those 200 extra lumens, but then I found out that the LS12000 has double the contrast ratio (2,500,000:1 versus 1,200,000:1) of the LS11000. Now there’s no question which one I’ll have to get.

Native contrast of the LS11k is about half the LS12k, per reviews.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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Native contrast of the LS11k is about half the LS12k, per reviews.

In real, humanly perceivable terms, that might not be all that much though. We simply don't perceive diffs in the extremes of (especially) highlights and (to lesser degree) shadows nearly as well as in the mid-tone region (and they both essentially fall along logarithmic curves). If those gains are primarily in black level and shadows, that'd probably be more noticeable than in the highlights... although higher peak brightness would help as well (probably for sheer brilliance/pop in HDR rendering)...

_Man_
 

John Dirk

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Native contrast of the LS11k is about half the LS12k, per reviews.
Where have you seen this? As far as I know Epson hasn't published native [ANSI] contrast ratios for either model.
 

DaveF

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In real, humanly perceivable terms, that might not be all that much though. We simply don't perceive diffs in the extremes of (especially) highlights and (to lesser degree) shadows nearly as well as in the mid-tone region (and they both essentially fall along logarithmic curves). If those gains are primarily in black level and shadows, that'd probably be more noticeable than in the highlights... although higher peak brightness would help as well (probably for sheer brilliance/pop in HDR rendering)...

_Man_
Haven’t seen it myself so can’t say from direct experience. But my impression is it would be obvious side by side in the elevated black floor. Whether it matters to you versus ever darker black floors is a personal price/performance decision.
Where have you seen this? As far as I know Epson hasn't published native [ANSI] contrast ratios for either model.
Early access European reviews have discussed this. A quick google finds this one.

LS12000 is about 5000:1
LS11000 is about 1000:1

 

ManW_TheUncool

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Haven’t seen it myself so can’t say from direct experience. But my impression is it would be obvious side by side in the elevated black floor. Whether it matters to you versus ever darker black floors is a personal price/performance decision.

My point was 2x contrast (that you mentioned) is probably not quite as much/appreciable as it sounds, if it's really just 2x.

But sure, if I'm already shopping for a new PJ to replace a substantially inferior one anyway, I'd probably spend a reasonable amount extra to get the extra performance... but most likely not 2x as much just to get 2x the contrast ratio unless I feel confident it'd be good enough to be my last upgrade for a decade or more (w/ good likelihood it'd actually be my very last) perhaps...

_Man_
 
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DaveF

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Perhaps. But there's a lot of older content on Prime that was previously ad-free but is now ad-supported, and there is no option I know of to remove ads.

My point was 2x contrast (that you mentioned) is probably not quite as much/appreciable as it sounds, if it's really just 2x.

But sure, if I'm already shopping for a new PJ to replace a substantially inferior one anyway, I'd probably spend a reasonable amount extra to get the extra performance... but most likely not 2x as much just to get 2x the contrast ratio unless I feel confident it'd be good enough to be my last upgrade for a decade or more (w/ good likelihood it'd actually be my very last) perhaps...

_Man_
Pricing is roughly:
LS12000 is 25% more than LS11000 for 2x to 5x the contrast. I’ll pay that from specs alone, and still be on my budget.

NP5 is 30% more than LS12000 for 4x to 5x the contrast. That’s a big maybe since it blows my budget.

NZ7 is 80% more than NP5 for ~same contrast. That’s a no for me.

YMMV
 

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Here's another comparo, no translation required. Their conclusion is the LS11k is visually close to the LS12k. There's an AVS thread discussing this. The room their photos were done in is all white, like an office conference room and the pictures are all quite bright. They're working on more photos of dark scenes to see if that reveals greater differences where black level and contrast matter more.
 
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ManW_TheUncool

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Here's another comparo, no translation required. Their conclusion is the LS11k is visually close to the LS12k. There's an AVS thread discussing this. The room their photos were done in is all white, like an office conference room and the pictures are all quite bright. They're working on more photos of dark scenes to see if that reveals greater differences where black level and contrast matter more.

Sounds like almost the same diff(s) as that between the old 6050 and 5050... maybe ever so slightly more so (for a modestly smaller % diff in cost).

IF their findings are accurate and trustworthy, I might just go for the LS11000 and look for a meaningfully better price than the MSRP (much like I did w/ the 5050) whereas there's probably no way to do that w/ the LS12000 (at least anytime soon)... unless you plan on taking advantage of the anamorphic lens option I guess -- I'd definitely want to consider doing that, if I'm spending the extra on the LS12000...

Actually, if I were shopping now, I might even just fall back on the 5050 (again) and look to get it for ~$2.5K or less instead -- FYI, I actually only paid $2.4K shipped for mine 1.5 years ago -- and then revisit shopping for a much better laser unit in a few years when it's time for a bulb change perhaps.

_Man_
 

DaveF

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Sounds like almost the same diff(s) as that between the old 6050 and 5050... maybe ever so slightly more so (for a modestly smaller % diff in cost).

IF their findings are accurate and trustworthy, I might just go for the LS11000 and look for a meaningfully better price than the MSRP (much like I did w/ the 5050) whereas there's probably no way to do that w/ the LS12000 (at least anytime soon)... unless you plan on taking advantage of the anamorphic lens option I guess -- I'd definitely want to consider doing that, if I'm spending the extra on the LS12000...

Actually, if I were shopping now, I might even just fall back on the 5050 (again) and look to get it for ~$2.5K or less instead -- FYI, I actually only paid $2.4K shipped for mine 1.5 years ago -- and then revisit shopping for a much better laser unit in a few years when it's time for a bulb change perhaps.

_Man_
I thought the 6050 and 5050 were identical in performance. The 6050 was basically the customer installer version for an extra $1000.

I'd read early on in the Epson early-looks discussions the LS11000 likened to the 4050 (no UB) and the LS12000 being the 5050UB / 6050UB.
 

John Dirk

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I thought the 6050 and 5050 were identical in performance. The 6050 was basically the customer installer version for an extra $1000.
Marketing material at time of release claimed the 6050 used cherry picked optics to achieve slightly better [1,200,000:1 vs 1,000,000:1] dynamic contrast ratios but I suspect it was all BS. They knew no one could perceive [and thereby discredit] such a small claimed difference and felt the 6050 needed an extra selling point beyond its black casing, extra bulb, extra year of warranty and the included Chief mount. As I suspect most did, I bought mine mainly for the color as a white projector just didn't fit my room aesthetic.
 

ManW_TheUncool

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I thought the 6050 and 5050 were identical in performance. The 6050 was basically the customer installer version for an extra $1000.

I'd read early on in the Epson early-looks discussions the LS11000 likened to the 4050 (no UB) and the LS12000 being the 5050UB / 6050UB.

Well, that last review you linked makes it sound like there's extremely little performance diff, if it's even meaningful at all. And the rest of the diffs do seem completely identical to the 6050 vs 5050, including the casing color, accessories, warranty, $1K MSRP diff. :D

I woulda expected (somewhat) greater diff in performance than that review indicated, but that's not what I'm gathering from that...

_Man_
 

DaveF

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Well, that last review you linked makes it sound like there's extremely little performance diff, if it's even meaningful at all. And the rest of the diffs do seem completely identical to the 6050 vs 5050, including the casing color, accessories, warranty, $1K MSRP diff. :D

I woulda expected (somewhat) greater diff in performance than that review indicated, but that's not what I'm gathering from that...

_Man_
Yep. It seems an outlier from others I’ve read, but there it is. It’s still early days, with few reviews and very few owners to report on the projectors. Hopefully we’ll get more perspectives in the coming months.
 

John Dirk

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Interesting the price diff between the Home and Pro versions remains $1000.00 even though there's no need for an extra lamp. If you're like me and also have no need for the mount, the extra cost is hard to accept, basically for a black chassis.
 

Mark-P

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Here's another comparo, no translation required. Their conclusion is the LS11k is visually close to the LS12k. There's an AVS thread discussing this. The room their photos were done in is all white, like an office conference room and the pictures are all quite bright. They're working on more photos of dark scenes to see if that reveals greater differences where black level and contrast matter more.
Thanks for that link. Now I understand why I’m not able to find the LS12000 anywhere for online purchase. It’s restricted to local dealers and their regions. I may have to go through my local Best Buy Magnolia dealer.
 

John Dirk

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That sounds like a great projector but if it won't do 3D it's of no use to me.
I'm currently on the fence where this is concerned. On the one hand, I'd like to have the ability to view 3D content should I desire to. On the other, I have the ability to do so now and rarely make use of it.

It is a curious move on Epson's part though. If we believe the current wisdom [see posts 24 and 83 of this thread] which suggest the decision to drop 3D had to do with their new "proprietary polarization filter" then I'd expect a markedly improved contrast ratio value over my 6050 which does support 3D. According to the respective spec sheets, however, only the LS12000 claims a dynamic contrast ratio (which I consider somewhat dubious at this point anyway) of up to 2,500,000:1. The claimed spec of the LS11000 is 1,200,000:1, identical to the 6050.

In practical use, I've never been exactly floored by the black levels of my 6050 but considered this a fair tradeoff for an otherwise extraordinary projector at a great price point. Assuming we have the reasoning correct, If the new crop of laser units from Epson do not offer notably improved blacks [and HDR] that at least approach JVC models then I don't know if the decision to drop 3D was a wise one.
 

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