Elizabeth Smart found.....Alive and well ! (1 Viewer)

[Michael*K]

She had a very good parent.

It's simple, really. The guy knew the right people and had the big bucks (these two things usually go hand-in-hand.) If being privileged makes you a good parent, then I get Ed Smart fit the bill.

 

[Walt N]

That's quite cynical, and it's not that simple. Do you know that he knew the right people, or did he go out and meet the right people? How did money help get his daughter back? She wasn't found by a high-priced private investigator, she was found by police officers.

Evidently, what Ed Smart does have going for him is an abundance of PR and people skills, and a lot of energy. People like that often have a good income as well.

 

[Micheal]

Please. The Smart's are publicly stating that they do not want their daughter to go through what happened to her for the Defense Attorney.

"They have expressed their concerns for Elizabeth's well-being, and will hold the D.A.'s office accountable for any actions that might victimize her a second time"

I guess it's OK to do it for movie deals and book offers though. Don't they want the alleged kidnappers to pay for this? If they go so far as not allowing her to testify it's going to be quite difficult. (Maybe that's why no charges have yet been filed)

It's also funny how everyone praising Ed Smart keeps ignoring that he spent the first day of his daughters return in front of the camera and not at home. Answer me this, would you do that to your daughter?

Now that's what I call disgusting.

 

[ChadM]

You last 2 "anti-ed"ers just can not comprehend how families, no, communities, like the Smarts see the world in which we live.

Actually, I can comprehend how the Smarts see the world as I see it much the same way (and no I am not a LDS either). There is a time and place to help and inviting homeless people to your house is not one of them (IMHO!, which I am allowed to have, BTW).

I am also allowed to not like ES. I just think the guy is a scumbag. And yes, that opinion is based only on seeing his mug all over the news and watching his demeanor. There is something not right about this guy. We have not heard the whole story.

And for anyone wondering I am extremely glad the little girl is home. Being at home with Ed has got to be better than with BDM. Point being that I THINK Ed is a scumbag, but I KNOW BDM is a scumbag.

 

[Chris Moe]

The phone message was not from the Smart family home, it was from their publicist phone (doens't every family have a publicist).

 

[Ashley Seymour]

Anyone seen or know where I can get a copy of Immanual's, BDM or whatever, handwriting? I am curious if someone can discern something of his character from an analysis of handwriting before we hear all the theories that will come out before and during the trial.

 

[Jonathan Burk]

Good grief Ashley, handwriting does not display personality traits! Handwriting analysis is so easy to disprove, it's preposterous to continue believing it. At least that's what my astrologer says. But since we've already hashed through the topic in a seperate thread, I'll get back to the subject at hand.

But as to the topic at hand, I think the publicity behind this kidnapping was related to several factors. The social status of the family and wealthy, suburban setting. The bravado of the kidnapper to walk into the house while the entire family was sleeping and leaving with the child. The eyewitness sister. And then the resources of the family to keep this in the public spotlight.

Now you have the astoundingly weird circumstances regarding her recovery, tied in with the religous overtones of the kidnapping (which are tied in with Utah's dominant religion), and so many unanswered questions.

This has been anything but a "normal" kidnapping, and many people (including me) are very interested in finding out what really happened.

 

[Ashley Seymour]

Good grief Ashley, handwriting does not display personality traits! Handwriting analysis is so easy to disprove, it's preposterous to continue believing it. At least that's what my astrologer says. But since we've already hashed through the topic in a seperate thread, I'll get back to the subject at hand.

Johathan, I couldn't help but smile when I posted my comment - thinking I would hear from you.

The reason I mentioned the writing of BDM is that I had occasion a couple of weeks ago to have the writing of two police officers shown to me. Well, one was a character that was duplicated - not original but a representation. The loop in the Y was all twisted and knotted. I asked "so what kind of a sexual pervert to we have here?" The response I got was a smile. Our pervert was indeed a police officer that had just been release from jail - for a sex offence.

I'll admitt that there are many other factors to take into consideration, but I would like to get my hands on some pages that BDM has written just to see if his writing fits in with his character.

Yes, I realize I have probably incited a challenge from Johathan but it is fun to see him get all worked up.

 

[MickeS]

The two suspects have now been charged:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/884413.asp?0dm=C218N



So they tried to break in to her cousins home a month after they kidnapped her? Seems rather stupid to me, but they didn't seem to be the smartest people either.

/Mike

 

[Micheal]

I found this as well...

The pair was also charged with attempting to break into the home of one of Smart's young female cousins and kidnap her last July 24. The alleged attempt fizzled when the intended victim woke up and saw someone cutting through the bedroom window screen with a knife.

Since Elizabeth claims that she was always with her captors the entire time she must have been present during this attempt. It kind of reminds me of the Patty Hearst bank robbery situation. (Before someone jumps all over me... I'm in no way trying to say that Elizabeth wanted to kidnap her cousin.) It's just another odd piece to this bizarre puzzle. The attempt took place almost 2 months after Elizabeth's kidnapping so I wonder what kind of frame of mind she was in at that point.

I don't think Mitchell will be seeing daylight again anytime soon.

 

[ChadM]

I don't think Mitchell will be seeing daylight again anytime soon.

Let's hope!

 

[Ashley Seymour]

I got my first glimpse of Mitchell’s handwriting. This morning on Good Morning America Diane Sawyer interviewed the woman that Mitchell proposed to a year ago - the one who basically told him to get lost. They put up on the screed a copy of the proposal letter he wrote to her. I only got to see it for about five seconds so no extensive analysis is possible. At first glance, it doesn't seem that he gets sexual gratification from desires that he considers perverted. What he does he consider normal. I don't think that his interest in women in a polygamist marriage is due to his religious beliefs. He is choosing young attractive women and that is his underlying interest. His beliefs are not as strong as his physical needs. He is smart and imaginative and can use his knowledge of religion and previous experience with the church to assist in satisfying his physical needs.

If I can find a copy of the letter on the Internet or in a newsmagazine I would like to get it to a graphoanalyst to get a complete read.

 

[Micheal]

Holy crap Ashley! I'm sorry but I can't understand how you got all that from a glimpse of some handwriting.

 

[Ashley Seymour]

One of my favorite books is Handwriting Analysis Putting it to Work for You by Andrea McNichol. It is still available at bookstores.

His upper loops on letters like H and L were not overly large or exagerated. From the above book "The upper zone, in general - the superego - is the realm of the mind. It represents thinking, fantasy, imagination, ideas, issusions, philoslphy, and sometimes religion. It is what we associate wit the head. What does your head do: It thinks, it creates, it imagines, it hopes."

"The middle zone, in general - the ego - is the platform between the upper and the lower zone, and it represents one's daily life. ... graphologists can tell whether or not a writer is currently happy by the way thep erson writes his middle zone. The middle zone also reveals what the writer thinks of himself in relation to other people. It may show one person to be an egotist and another to feel small and insecure."

"The lower zone, in general - the id - represents the world of instincts, urges, longings, and desires. The ower zone reveals the writer's attitudes toward his home life; body; basic drives for sustenance, money, health, and sex; and the world of his libido."

The lower loops I saw were large, open, but well formed. Twisted and angular loops in y's j's, etc. may indicate that the writer takes pleasure in what he recognizes is perverted. The emphasis is on his own perception. The writing I saw did not show this, so I deduced that Mitchel believed what he did was not perverted. Because the lower loops were large and well formed, it would indicate that he had a strong interest in his libido and body. He seemed to eschew money, so what does that leave? Coupled with the fact that his upper loops were not overly developed, I think that his drive is more toward his physical needs than his spiritual.

His writing was neat, well formed and indicated that he took care in presenting his request to his potential bride. That was one indication that he could be intelligent.

A secretary at a bank I worked at would bring me phone messages. I observed from her writing an emphasis in making her upper loops large. One day we were talking about our college classes and she said she took and flunked Greek. I thought for a moment and said "you took it to study the bible." She was quite surprised but said yes. Then I found that her father was a minister and that her present husband's father was also a minister and she was devout, but I had never heard her discuss religion or her views. Her beliefs were private but deeply held.

 

[Walt N]

I remember Graphology, or non-forensic handwriting analysis being a very popular parlor game when I was a kid, but I didn't realize it was still being practiced. No offense intended, but are you aware that this paranormal pursuit has been debunked many times over? http://skepdic.com/graphol.html

 

[Ashley Seymour]

I couldn't find anything in the skeptics thread that debunked anything.

I've taken the Meyers-Briggs test and as with any studty purporting to discern human beliefs and predict behavior, if you have an agenda or if you try to do more than is reasonable with the material you are not going to get favorible results.

The letter can be examined by a forensic graphoanalyst to see if Mitchel wrote it and it may be evidence of his intent toward Elizabeth based on his past experience.

I am not arguing that anything of a non forensic nature is in any way possible evidence in court. I am only looking at some general traits that I am curious to know that may reflect this guys character. In five seconds I only got to see a few characters. If you agree that pursuing underage girls for sex is perverted then I completely agree. But does Mitchell view his drives as perverted and does he gain gratification from acting on his desired? There will be lots of other tests that psychologists give him over the next couple of years. We won't be privy to any of this.

A further analysis may reveal other aspects of his writing that will modify a quick snapshot look.

What I discussed is perhaps in the area of a parlor game. I don't propose anything further or more serious. I do agree that an analysis of the writing along is not admissible in court. Just as polygraph studies are viewed with concern, I don't like to see their use as evidence either.

 

[Jonathan Burk]

I would like to get it to a graphoanalyst to get a complete read.

Even better would be to send a copy of the same sample to five different graphologists, and see if they come up with anything close to one another! Of course, the analysis is much easier when you know a great deal about the person beforehand (I bet I could do a spectacular analysis of my wife's handwriting). So Ashley, send the same sample to five different graphologists, don't give them any clue as to who it might be from, and see what kind of congruity you get from their conclusions.

Penn and Teller did a similar demonstration with Feng Shui on their TV show. They had three different Feng Shui "experts" treat the same house, without them knowing anyone else was working on it. Their suggestions for each room were so different, it was hilarious. They had the funniest clips of two of the "experts" telling this woman that the red color of her sofa was very positive, and would give her health and wealth etc., and then they cut to the third guy gravely informing her that the red color of the sofa is bad news, and will no doubt bring her many misfortunes.

Ashley, is there any possiblity that your knowledge of Mr. Mitchell's kidnapping, polygamous marriage, and sexual assault of Elizabeth Smart could have affected your graphological reading? I mean, if you found the same handwriting on a loan application, would you call the police and let them know that you may have a polygamous pervert sitting in front of your desk, and they should investigate him? Of course not. Your conclusions would be strongly tied to other information you had about him.

 

[Walt N]

Ashley, your take on it seems pretty reasonable and lighthearted. Again, no offense intended. One of my mother's friends got pretty wrapped up in it way back when, but then she unfortunately moved on to an obsession with psychics and poured a lot of money into it. I had that in the back of my mind hence the probably undue response.

 

[Ashley Seymour]

Even better would be to send a copy of the same sample to five different graphologists, and see if they come up with anything close to one another! Of course, the analysis is much easier when you know a great deal about the person beforehand (I bet I could do a spectacular analysis of my wife's handwriting).

I would absolutely love to do this and would be quite interested, as you, in the read. I don't know how to get a copy of the letter, unless People or some other magazine publishes it in an upcoming issue.

Penn and Teller did a similar demonstration with Feng Shui on their TV show. They had three different Feng Shui "experts" treat the same house, without them knowing anyone else was working on it.

Now I'll probably piss off all the Feng Shui, Astrology, Palmists, Crystalist, etc. when I say I don't believe any of that. I won't argue the validity of debunking Feng Shui and Graphoanalysis anymore than I would argue the proof of alien space craft and the moon landing. I would be more open to debating the validy of the efficacy of a Meyers and Briggs type of personality reading.

if you found the same handwriting on a loan application, would you call the police and let them know that you may have a polygamous pervert sitting in front of your desk, and they should investigate him? Of course not

I have made the point a couple of times that there was nothing in a five second look at his handwriting that would indicate that he had a propensity for being a pervert. On the contrary, what is extroadinary, is how normal his writing appeared. That is why I would be curious to spend more time looking at the full text.

Johathan, I believe I perceive your concern about an abuse of the information derived from this type of analysis. I share your concern and do not see a use of this information in a court of law. I know of no test of any kind that will look at a persons character traits and predict if he/she will commit murder, theft, cheat on a spouse, lie, etc. But, we all have had an experience with a person that has put us on guard and make us not want to get into a situation where we can be taken advantage of. I believe that handwriting can reveal some of our inner drives, and you do not.

Ashley, your take on it seems pretty reasonable and lighthearted.

All I ment to was to anticipate the debate that I expect will appear in the press and over the water cooler. I an not going to bear witness against this guy, but thought it would be fun to see if some stereotypes could be investigated. Mitchell will be tried and convicted or acquited on evidence that will have nothing to do with his personality. I think it is fun to get behind the mask and see if there is a way to find what makes this guy tick.

? I mean, if you found the same handwriting on a loan application, would you call the police and let them know that you may have a polygamous pervert sitting in front of your desk, and they should investigate him? Of course not.

Again, you are setting up a straw man argument. As I have mentioned, a persons personality traits do not condemn him/her of a crime. Besides, one mans perversion is another mans healthy sex drive. The perversion in the writing is how the writer perceives his drive and how he/she derives satisfication. Have I seen perversion on a loan application? Yes. After knowing the customer for a couple of years, I found that he was a swinger. I am not aware that this is againt the law and he certainly has the right to persue his own hobbies. He just got off doing something that he thought was naughty. Mitchel, on the other hand, had no such level of satisfication/guilt connection. Maybe he is the more dangerous because he doesnt think what he does is wrong. Pause for thought.