Electronics Gurus...answer me this? Breaking in Amps? (1 Viewer)

[Bill Turetsky]

The Coriolus effect is devastating on liquid capacitors!

 

[Yogi]

I always find that my Proceed amp opens up after about five minutes of use. I listen to a track called non-stop polka on a Telarc #9 (various artists) disk and on that particular track in the beginning there is a sound of a whistle that is supposed to come from the left speaker. When I fire up my amp and listen to that track the sound is localized to the left speaker, but after about 5 minutes when I listen to the track again the sound of the whistle comes from way beyond (more left of) the left speaker. I can't tell the difference in any other track but on this particular one, everytime, I can hear the whistle go way beyond the wall near my left speaker after the amp has stayed on for about 5 mins. Maybe I start hallucinating after about 5 mins of listening or maybe its the tumor in my brain that gets stimulated after 5 mins of music, but this happens every single time.

It doesn't make sense to me either in case of amp break-in and this coming from a physics major. But if it were a real phenomenon the explanation I would give would be the change in junction interface properties of transistors with age and temperature. I did my dissertation in interfacial adhesion of thin films (used in IC fabrication) and have conclusive evidence that when ever there is an interface between two physically or electrically dissimilar media there is always some interphase formed that is like neither of the two materials on either sides. This interphase has a finite thickness (unlike the theoritical model interface of zero thickness) that changes as there is interdiffusion between the lattice structures of the two media governed by temperature and other physical conditions. The ultimate device performance depends on the electrical and physical properties of these interphases that change with time. Some changes are irreversible (break-in over a long period of time) and some reversible (change after 5 mins of warmup). That is my take on the subject. There is definetly changes in interfacial properties at the junctions of transistors over time but weather these changes are audible or not is questionable. Also, I have no measurements or literature to back up my theory in case of the transistor that is. If you want to talk about changes in stresses and adhesion of thin films in devices then I am your man.

 

[Sebastien David]

posted by BenK:

"What gets me is that people ALWAYS say their (insert component) sounded better when it was broken in. I have yet to read someone saying it sounded worse. Which tends to reinforces my opinion that your ears get used to the sound as Camp stated."

VERY good point...

 

[Drew Eckhardt]

When you break in electronics, two things happen:

1. If you expect them to sound better, they do because of the placebo effect.

2. You adjust to the inaccuracies. Humans are very flexible - if you put on a pair of goggles that invert what you see, after a while everything will look right-side-up. The same thing happens.

3. You'll get through the infant-mortality period. The failure curve for electronics is bath-tub shaped - a lot of units fail early, then very few fail, and as you reach end-of-life (electrolytic capacitors drying out, etc) a lot fail. If you don't use it much, this might get it to fail while in-warranty rather than afterwards.

 

[RichardMA]

The idea of amp "break in" was invented by high end
stores so customers would keep the amp past the point
of being able to return it.

 

[John Beavers]

I find it interesting that those who hold the position that electronic components cannot have changes in sonic output over time always speak in absolutes. Whereas those of us who find sonic changes occuring over time speak of our experiences. And it's amazing to me how many of these nay sayers must have advanced degrees in psychology too; what with their diagnosis of delusional behavior for those of us hearing these changes in sound

 

[RobertR]

these nay sayers must have advanced degrees in psychology too;

So are you saying it's an "absolute" that anyone who comments on psychoacoustics MUST have an advanced psychology degree?

 

[Stephen Houdek]

I find it interesting that those who hold the position that electronic components cannot have changes in sonic output over time always speak in absolutes.

No, I don't think anyone is saying that.....It would be silly to think nothing changed as it was used. What most are saying; instead of breaking in and sounding better you are simply wearing it out. Given that, it should be just as likely it will sound worse than better. However, you always hear it sounds better which most people think is "malarky" to quote a previous poster.

I agree with the previous poster......High end shops encouraging you to keep it past their return period.

 

[Chu Gai]

Well it's invariably in any vendor's best interest for you to hold on to something for a long period of time. It's a method of ensuring a sale and it's based on a variety of factors that interrelate to various degrees.

1)People have a tendency to feel obligated to purchase something after they've held on to it for a while.

2)People are impressed with the salesperson's faith in the product and perhaps being a bit or quite unsure of what's really going on, make that faith part of their own.

3)It gives people time to get used to the financial impact of the purchase.

4)People start more fully researching their purchase...magazines, reviews, forums such as this, looking for some peer approval.

5)Get's you used to the look of the thing...the romance begins again, your thoughts are now more focussed as you listen. Perhaps now you can hear that tiny cymbal in the background you never knew was there. Generally speaking it was, but you're listening more intently.

6)It's a hassle returning something. If you ordered it, you may have to eat s/h both ways.

7)Now your significant other has also gotten used to it...she/he says hey it's really great (possible translation: ok, we can afford it, now buy the f*****g thing and leave me alone about it already).

8)You've got a relationship with the salesperson and returning it might compromise it.

There's other reasons of course.

John, it's not delusional behavior, generally speaking it's listener adaptation and it's nothing new.

BTW, how is it that these units just don't keep breaking in (down)?

 

[John Beavers]

John, it's not delusional behavior, generally speaking it's listener adaptation and it's nothing new.

I guess I don't fully understand the listener adaptation concept. For me sound is sound. As a biologic organism I am excited on a tactile and aural level by sound waves. They reach the processing level of my brain and there the magic happens. At that level input can be interpreted differently in that they effect me percerptually to levels of pleasure or pain, joy & sadness; and ultimately good & bad is also decided based somewhat on this interpretation of the sound; but the actual levels and tightness of Bass, the mid bass naturalness, and the smoothess or edginess of the highs, this is more the data than how it's interpreted. It is this quantifiable area that I speak of when discussing the changes in tone and output frequencies that I hear with a component. I am not adapting to this in that I am becoming used to boomy bass, feeling only in my head now that it's tight and accurate. What I am is becoming acquaited with the character of the audio output of the component. When this "character" changes over time, for whatever the reason, I see it as a "break-in" period plateau being reached. It's ususally a good thing, though I have grown to dislike certain components that brought out way to much bass in my system, like the Lexicon MC1. That changed for the worse. The Plinius on the other hand changed into a very even sounding, musically accurate amp...over time. I sorry but I don't just don't buy that I can make a sound wave do something it's not naturally doing up in my cranial processing centers. I can be a receptive and apprecitive listener and note when I hear things change. Which is what I did with my comments here on what I experienced with the Plinius over the 150 hours I've been listening to it. I believe my observations were accurate and that the amp did have a positive breakin period that resulted in a now outstanding electronic musical instrument.

 

[John Beavers]

So are you saying it's an "absolute" that anyone who comments on psychoacoustics MUST have an advanced psychology degree?

Hey now, there was a on that one. I was just making the point that these pop-psych answers to why we hear differences are at worst an insult and at best lame arguments for your position.

 

[Bill Turetsky]

Let's put it this way.

I dare anyone to find a statement from a repuatble amp manufacturer saying they deliver a product which needs X hours of playing before it is up to specs.

I dare anyone finding an amp company that says they don't know how to quantifiably measure their equipment so that unit #136 is the same as #34.

I dare anyone finding an amp company that is willing to toss 'half-baked' (pun intended) equipment onto the market and just HOPE that everyone listens, reviews, and evaluates at the 'right' time.

'Break-ins' by manufacturers are TOTALLY related to the 'infant mortality/bath tub' paradigm and NOT to performance improvement.

When informing of the UFO companies that might be found - also send a deposit for the bridge I want to sell you.

 

[Daniel Lindgren]

John Beavers:

Listener adaptation is simply the brain adjusting itself to new surroundings. Nothing new about that, as Drew stated:

You adjust to the inaccuracies. Humans are very flexible - if you put on a pair of goggles that invert what you see, after a while everything will look right-side-up. The same thing happens.

The difference between that standpoint and "amp break in" is that brain adaptation is a proven fact. If you wear glasses that (intentionally) turn the world upside down, the brain will (in a couple of days) adapt and compensate for it. The brain will flip the image over to a normal state again. If you then remove the glasses, the world will go upside down again for some time, until the brain compensates again. This has been proven in experiments; it's not an opinion, a rumour or a lie - its a fact.

As I wrote earlier, if break in is as obvious as some say it is, it would have been successfully verified in a blind test years ago. It would be so easy to do it ...

 

[Chu Gai]

could be John. not knowing though your amp's characteristics, if one assumes for the moment that the amp's specifications haven't changed over that period of time, what would you attribute your perceptions to?

 

[James Q Jenkins]

I was just making the point that these pop-psych answers to why we hear differences are at worst an insult and at best lame arguments for your position.

Very revealing, John.
You want people who don't agree with your opinion and "experience" to respect it. However, on the flip side, you have absolutely no respect (or active disdain) at all whatsoever for their opinions or observations.
Open your mind a little and you may change that "at best" reference.

 

[John Beavers]

You want people who don't agree with your opinion and "experience" to respect it. However, on the flip side, you have absolutely no respect (or active disdain) at all whatsoever for their opinions or observations

Expressing an opinion based on experience is one thing, saying a person is being fooled by their own mind, whether couched in a sweet phrase like "listener adaptation" is another. The later is reporting on something, the other is making a judgement based on assumption, without so much as a consultation with the person you are passing judgement on.
I do respect those who have listened to components and report back that they hear no difference over time in the sound of it. I do not respect statements made that counter those observations, not with their own experiences, but with intellectual psuedo judgements.
Hope no one is taking offense at anything being said here, I'm enjoying our debate

 

[Bill Turetsky]

JB:

For the sake of this discussion, could you please go thru the scenario (from the angle of the amp designer) as to how a quality amp is put onto the market in such a 'partially-ready' state that it needs further 'processing' (burn-in) by the user?

a. how do they know how much to use it before shipping?
b. how do they know what things change and how much?
c. how do they measure that - only in hours used?
d. how do they know a ready-state after X hours - and how do they know this 'change' then stops - and the unit can be used for 10-15 years with high performance?
e. how do they measure things - or at least specify them - so that ALL units are made with the same tight performance parameters?
f. please just give a hint of what processes are 'in play' here that change things in 50-100 hours and then 'stabilize' - after all - there are 100's of good amp engineers and these phenomena must be specified and learned someplace/somewhere.

Please let us get beyond the superficial and dig below a bit and imagine ourselves amp manufacturers and try to define some of this - and there would seem to be no more meaningful way to do it than thru the brain of the amp designer.

 

[Larry B]

I find it interesting that those who hold the position that electronic components cannot have changes in sonic output over time always speak in absolutes. Whereas
those of us who find sonic changes occuring over time speak of our experiences. And it's amazing to me how many of these nay sayers must have advanced degrees in psychology too; what with their diagnosis of delusional behavior for those of us hearing these changes in sound.

Similarly, Saurav has pointed out that individuals who prefer CDs tend (note the word "tend") to argue for the superiority of this medium based on specs, while those of us who prefer vinyl do so based on the way it sounds.
Now to the issue at hand: I personally believe that electronics do change with break-in, but I also firmly believe that our ear (or more accurately, our brain) adapts. However, I do not buy into the manufacturer conspiracy theory ("keep testing it until the warranty has expired...").
Others have described above experiments which demonstrated the ability of the visual system to adapt, and I suspect the auditory system is similarly capable of this phenomeon. One frequently sees examples of this in the audio review literature: A reviewer will at first find a certain piece of equipment inferior in some way to his/her reference, but then comes to understand that the new piece is atually doing something special, like letting more information through, or whatever. IMO, what is happening is that he/she is getting used to the sound.
Of course, as I and others have stated in the past, the simple test of the component break-in theory (sounds like Watergate ) is to compare two nominally identical units, one of which has been broken in, the other of which has not. Until this is done, all arguments are pure speculation.
Larry

 

[John Beavers]

I dare anyone to find a statement from a repuatble amp manufacturer saying they deliver a product which needs X hours of playing before it is up to specs.

Be careful what you dare Bill, you may get it
I don't think anyone would say that Sim Audio is not a reputable amp maufacturer. They are one of the most respected mfg's of high end electronics in the industry. And now to quote from my Sim Audio P3 Moon pre-amp instruction manual:
"Your unit will require a minimum of 100 hours of break-in, to achieve good listening performance. Peak performance will occur after 250 hours of play"

 

[Larry B]

John:
Many manufacturers describe a break-in period. What I think was being asked for was a statement that actual specs (frequency response, slew rate, whatever) would not be obtained until break-in had occurred.
Larry