Eclipse Titanium 15''

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Anthony Sa, Jan 22, 2002.

  1. Anthony Sa

    Anthony Sa Agent

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    Anyone ever used one of these in a HT situation? I have heard of a few of these beasts in cars and they are just incredible. I have only heard 1 ported box tuned to around 35hz but it was incredible. I wonder what it would sound like tuned low, like 18hz? I was just thinking... I could stray away from my dual tempest sonosubs and just use one Eclipse Ti15 Sonosub.. IT would almost surely out perform the dual tempests would it not? I would be able to run 1500 watts to the TI (actually 2400 if i only hooked up 1 VC.. but I am almost positive it would just break if i did that) but only able to run about 400 watts to the tempests (I could run 750 to each by Dan Wiggins said that above about 350-400 and the sub would bottom out). So any comments on this? I would use the same sonosub as the one I was about to build for my tempest. 55'' high x 20'' diameter with an 8'' x 45''.
     
  2. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    Anthony,
    If you want a high excursion driver you would probably be better off with the Blueprint 1503. I believe it costs $219 and I believe has a larger Xmax than the Eclipse drivers. To check it out go to www.blueprintdrivers.com.
    Also, keep in mind that you will need a parametric EQ (BFD) to account for the peak around 70Hz due to high voice coil inductance.
    Brian
     
  3. Anthony Sa

    Anthony Sa Agent

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    Well the Ti has over 3.5'' excursion peak to peak and can take 1500 watts without even worrying about it. Plus I don't think i will need to buy the extra parametric EQ to compliment it. I have looked into the blueprint drivers before and was impressed but I would rather have dual tempests than dual or even a signl 1503.
     
  4. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    Eclipse's site is claiming it is capable of 7.1L of displacement (Sd 800cm^2 and one way Xmax is 44.5mm). Vas is just over 6ft^3 and Fs is 27hz, qts is 0.39. I never looked very hard, but while looking for specs the prices were all over $700.

    The main page says 3" linear and 3.5" peak to peak (doesn't say which driver though). But in the spec table, the 10" and 12" were listed at 1.5" one way Xmax and the 15" was listed as 1.75".

    Wouldn't the Eclipse have the same 60-70hz problems the BP 03 series have? In which case both would need an eq but dual BP 03 series drivers could out displace it for less than 2/3 the cost.
     
  5. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    This is an apples vs oranges question.

    Also, pretty easy to shake an entire house with a single 1503 and an adequate amp. As they say "been there done that"....

    The dual Tempests will play lower, are more efficient, and only require moderate EQ depending on the room. Any of the current crop of high excursion 15"s will play louder if given enough power. Most will need additional EQ due to the relatively high VC inductance.

    The Eclipse titanium cone is pretty to look at, so if that's where your interest is go for it. It won't out perform a 1503, nor will it go as low as the Tempests.

    As far as the P-P measurements; in most homes plaster will be falling from the ceiling, and windows will be breaking before you use up 2" of excursion
     
  6. Anthony Sa

    Anthony Sa Agent

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    Could you explain to me, and I am not trying to be a smartass but I am trying to learn new things, how a 15'' sub with a longer throw (eclipse) will not play as low as a 15'' will not as much throw and there for not able to move as much air (tempest)? I have been trying to figure that out and can't come up with an answer on my own.
     
  7. Dustin B

    Dustin B Producer

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    I don't know the techincal details of why this is, hopefully Thomas will jump back in. But a Tempest has an Fs of 18.1hz, the Eclipse has an Fs of 27hz. Once you go below a drivers resonance frequency things get ugly. The lower Fs of the Tempest will allow it to play lower.

    It's possible to design a driver that can play really low but not very loud because it can't move a lot of air. I think displacement has more to do with SPL capability than low frequency capability. Although the lower you go the more air you have to move to get high SPL.
     
  8. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    Sorry if you misunderstood my attempt at humor....
    Drivers are designed with different goals in mind. Hence the different characteristics. To fully understand driver design is a BIG task. Understanding T/S parameters is a good start http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/theile.asp
    Generally speaking car woofers are designed to play loud but not necessarily low. Home woofers are usually designed to play low, but not necessarily real loud.
    Drivers like the Tempest are a great compromise. Efficient, low Fs, great sound quality. But if you want really high SPL's you better get several.
    Drivers like the BluePrint are a spin-off of car subs. Very high output, but that's traded off with a higher Fs and lower efficiency.
    There's a little thing in audio called Hoffman's Iron Law...
    "Hoffman's Iron Law details the relationship between a loudspeaker's efficiency, its box size, and its low frequency cut off."
    Basically this means you can control 2 of the 3 items, efficiency, box size, or how low it plays. But you can't control all three. That's why different speakers have different performance properities. They are targeting different performance goals. So any driver design is a compromise (balance) between the 3 items.
    Hope this helps
    Regards
    Thomas
     
  9. Anthony Sa

    Anthony Sa Agent

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    I got the humor part of it.. Actually I was just imagining the pictures falling off of walls and off of shelves while playing a good LFE movie. I am wondering. Would tuning the eclipse lower possibly help the lower end or would it hurt the performance on the lower octave?
     
  10. George Martin

    George Martin Stunt Coordinator

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    Anthony SA
    There used to be another ECLIPSE site just for the technical aspects of Eclipse products I can't seem to locate however to give to you. I will check with my Eclipse sales rep and get it.
    I found it www.eclipse-car.com try this site it is a lot more informitive that the main site. By the way that woofer does pretty good for SPL but if you are looking for SQ then try the 8700 series the play loud and low and yes they will go in a ported enclosure.
     
  11. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    It's not a fantasy. Big, high output subs can and do knock things off shelves, crack plaster, etc.

    There is a limit as to how low a driver can be forced to operate below it's Fs. If you want low bass (15hz or so) it's better to choose a driver that has a lower Fs to begin with. The greater the amount of EQ used to augment the lowest octaves more raw power needed to get the driver up to speed. Drivers are a 'piston'. When driven hard they can suffer cone break up. This causes distortion. It's always best to operate a driver where the cone motion is 'linear' = lowest distortion (no cone breakup). Using lots of EQ accelerates nonlinearity and that causes cone breakup
     
  12. Anthony Sa

    Anthony Sa Agent

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    So basically what you guys are telling me is that I should ditch the idea of the Titanium and stick with either tempests or possibly swing back to the idea of a 1503 or maybe even a 1803?
     
  13. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    Well the Eclipse is just a little pricey....

    Go with dual Tempests if you can live with a larger box that goes lower and is easier to drive. Get the 1503 is you want smaller box that delivers high SPL's but at the cost of a higher Fs and lower efficiency. I can't comment about the 1803 because I haven't played with one of those.
     
  14. Vince Bray

    Vince Bray Stunt Coordinator

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    Although controversial [​IMG] , it probably should be mentioned that a couple of passive radiators ( you'd need two of PR18 from stryke.com ) would tune your eclipse nice and low. It's not that different a driver than the HE15. I get flat response near-field to 20hz or slightly below that from my 15.2 cube. Dan Wiggins at Adire Audio seems to believe in the PR design, and he has a good white paper http://www.adireaudio.com/Tech%20Papers/sub_gd.htm comparing the tradeoffs in the different alignments. The folks at lambda also have some good info on PR designs. Ok, scratch that, they used to have info, and used to sell PRs. They had a decent FAQ on PR but it's gone. Anyone have this link still? Does it live?
    Now there will probably be comments about the horrible, unlistenable sound produced by the PR alignment, but I have not experienced this. I have as a reference a NHT 1259 sub I built for a friend, and while you can tell it has superior transient response, I would not characterize the difference as night and day by any means. In fact, the 15.2 compares very favorably, and the great part is that you can't break the 15.2. Crank Jurassic Park to reference and you will believe. The great thing is that the 15.2 is only about 22 to 23" square, and can produce all the bass that even reasonably un-sane people desire. You need gobs of amp power and a sturdy cabinet. Now, I don't listen at ear-bleed volume all day ( i wish ), it's nice to know the sub's not going to break when the couch starts to act like IT's going to break.
    I haven't simmed it, but I think your eclipse would work very similarly, since the HE15 has a (tested) fs of about 30hz. The PRs tune the cabinet, and the fs of the driver is almost not a factor.
    This is not to sell up the PR design over all others. When you want to use that driver in a room, though, this is one way to tune it low. If you're interested, I'll try plugging in the specs for your driver and see what happens. Let me know.
    Vince
    My sub page http://hometown.aol.com/vbray/audio.html
    be patient with AOL and hit refresh a few dozen times..
     
  15. Anthony Sa

    Anthony Sa Agent

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    Well the PR design looks like it could be very useful but I don't know how I could make it work. The reason I wanted a sonotube is so I would take up that much floor space but I could make the box huge just by making it taller. Also, it would be impossible to fit 2 pr-18s in a sonotube. BUT I am interested in this PR design none the less (if only to gain knowledge). The only way I would make a standard box would be if it was no larger than 24''x24'' on the floor, but could really be as tall as needed (i would expect no larger than 3-4 feet though).
    Actually that does sound incredible to me now. I could throw 2 pr-18's and 1 eclipse ti15 or go with something even ballsier. 2 maelstroms would probably sound in-f******-sane but would cost a ton of cash.
    Vince, If you could email me @ [email protected], I would love to discuss a PR design with you and possibly design a nice beast for my basement!
     
  16. Ryan T

    Ryan T Second Unit

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    Hi, I think i'm missing something....

     
  17. Anthony Sa

    Anthony Sa Agent

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    I can get the Eclipse 15'' Ti for just over $450, which is why I was considering it in the first place. I just realized that I failed to mention that in the beginning.
     
  18. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    Anthony
    You can't use PR's in a tube sub unless you put it on it's side. They can't be used in an upward or downward firing position.
    Also you should certainly audition a PR based sub before jumping in. Their transient response is a just a bit different than sealed or ported designs. As a result, some people swear by them, and other people swear at them.
    Since this issue continues to pop up, here's an offer. I'll put my spare HE-15 or a BPD-1503 in a Stryke cube. And anyone that wants to drop by for an A/B with the ported HE-15 design (aka AS-15) I'll be happy to do a shootout. Those that have already heard them both, know the differences aren't subtle...
    I'm in Denver please stop by..... [​IMG]
    BTW you can get 2 BDP-1503's for a total of $440...
     
  19. Anthony Sa

    Anthony Sa Agent

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    I would seriously considering stopping in if I wasnt a few days worth of driving to your home! Anyone in the cleveland area (east side) have a home theater with a PR sub enclosure in it? I would love to hear it and compare it to others that I have heard.

    I have a QSC RMX 2450 amp to power whichever subs that I choose (in whatever enclosure I choose). SO power to the sub will not be a problem. With all of this new information, it looks like I have to go back to the drawing boards AGAIN!!! lol, got to love this forum.
     

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