Ebert tells it like it is... (1 Viewer)

[Chuck L]

I am with you on this one Patrick. At the same time though, I don't see much from the retailers embracing the format much either. There have been way too many times when I have gone into a 'Joe Public' store like Best Buy, Circuit City, Costco, or (insert name here) and they don't even have these wonderful televisions set up properly themselves. (Most of the people that buy their televisions at Wal-Mart would be totally out of synch and overwhelmed at a speciality store.)

Or, I have often seen a pan and scan movie playing on these televisions and it looks like shit.

So...the stupidity run rampid not only the consumer front...

If these people took the time out of their busy schedules and did not only the widescreen television and widescreen films justice, public view might change. But when the general public can't tell a difference as to why one is 'better' than the other, even with the help of 'professionals,' why bother?

 

[Jonny P]

I started buying the letterbox version of movies back in VHS. What moved me in this direction was when the SciFi channel had the letterbox version of the trilogy on one year. They had a demonstration showing how much of the movie was being cropped out in the Pan & Scan versions. That sold me and I realized why, when I had been watching the Pan & Scan versions of movies (usually 2:35 to 1) it seemed as if there were certain scenes that I couldn't see that I remembered seeing in the theater. In many cases the "letterbox version" was a few dollars more.

Best Buy and Suncoast were the two suppliers that seemed to stock VHS titles available in letterbox. I purchased as many as I could including: Star Wars Trilogy, Stargate, Pulp Fiction, Apollo 13, Wyatt Earp, True Lies, and all of the Star Trek movies (up through "Generations").

I was pleased to see channels like AMC and TMC broadcast classics in this format.

Currently, there are two shows that air in letterbox format in primetime...they are "Crossing Jordan" and "ER" -- both pretty popular shows.

People don't mind letterboxing in 1:85 to 1 ratio movies. Where I think they have a problem is with 2:35 to 1 aspect ratio movies.

Why? Because people with smaller sets say the picture is "too skinny" and they feel that they are missing something at the top and bottom. Sometimes people think the bars were "added" in and are covering up the real picture.

Ironically, in the Pan & Scan version of movies that were originally 2:35 to 1 are the movies that really require letterboxing.

In my opinion, there never should be a Pan & Scan version of a movie that is 1.85 to 1 ratio.

If people can watch "ER" in that ratio (a show in the top 10 in primetime), then people can watch movies in that ratio. There is enough "horizontal" picture on 4:3 TVs in the 1.85 to 1 ratio that a Pan & Scan release is never needed...in my opinion.

If studios feel a need to do Pan & Scan versions of movies that are 2.35 to 1 for people who have small TVS...let them do it.

Popular comedies like "Sweet Home Alabama" are released in letterbox/widescreen format only. Notice that you hear very few complaints from consumers.

The other problem are salespeople at stores. When someone sees the words "widescreen", they ask the sales attendant about it. The customer says to the sales person, "We don't have a widescreen TV, just a regular TV." The sales person usually gives them the fullscreen version.

To the uneducated viewing public, it seems to them as if they are missing something that is hiding under those black bars. They aren't, they are actually missing something without those black bars.

The key, in my opinion is to simply get "bigger" TVs in people's hands. Forget about 16:9 TVs for a moment.

A 2.35 to 1 movie doesn't seem as "drastic" to the average consumer when they are watching on a TV that is 27+ inches. The bigger, the better.

In most cases, though, it isn't a stretch for a studio to include both Letterbox/widescreen and Pan & Scan versions in the same set. This is a practice that I prefer.

There will continue to be letterbox/widescreen versions of movies. Granted, they may become harder to find at Target and Wal-Mart (just as they were in VHS), but Best Buy, Suncoast, and online retailers will continue to stock them.

The good news is that those versions outsell the Pan & Scan versions. But, as long as there are consumers for PS versions, the studios are willing to sell them.

I stand by my feeling that no 1.85 to 1 movie should ever be "formatted to fit" my screen. That aspect ratio is acceptable to the majority of consumers.

The best way to keep letterboxing and widescreen readily available and at the same price is to keep buying discs.

From what I have read, sales of movies on home video are up significantly since DVD. We get day-and-date releases that we can buy -- we don't have "priced for rental" movies. We also avoided the crappy experiment called "DIVX."

As more TVs broadcast with black bars at the top and bottom of the screen we will, in turn, see more acceptance of it on DVD.

In the meantime, it is our duty to go out and purchase widescreen versions of titles that are produced in separate widescreen and PS versions. That will tell the studio what we like and what we want.

But...since they made widescreen versions in VHS, they will continue to make them in DVD...and they will stay anamorphically encoded.

 

[Mark_vdH]

People don't mind letterboxing in 1:85 to 1 ratio movies. Where I think they have a problem is with 2:35 to 1 aspect ratio movies.

That's certainly the case in my environment. Sometimes 2.35:1 movies like Memento or Kundun are cropped to 1:85:1 in my country, because they'll know that most 4:3 TV owners and most 16:9 TV owners will be satisfied...

On a (OAR-) side note: In Australia Napoleon (1927) will be released nexth month. I'm really curious about how the 4.00:1 scenes will be tranfered to dvd.
How were these scenes transfered on previous LD (and VHS) releases?

 

[Jeff Gross]

Currently, there are two shows that air in letterbox format in primetime...they are "Crossing Jordan" and "ER" -- both pretty popular shows.

Aren't HBO's shows show in letterbox also? I'm pretty sure Sopranos and Six Feet Under are.

I've never understood how HBO can feel it's important to put these shows in letterbox but show movies P&S. You would think that the people who made this decision would also understand the importance for movies.

With all the channels HBO and Starz have, I wish they would at least show widescreen movies on one. I would think giving viewers options could only help them.

 

[WillG]

Another faux pas by Fox

Notice this on their DVDs that have both Wide/P&S versions in one release (which, I will commend Fox for doing on many of their new releases lately. Guarantees that you can rent the title and be able to watch it in it's OAR and that Big Retailers cannot skew sales figures in favor of P&S) On the grid on the back, they always seem to Show the "Full Screen" Spec first. (Warner is guilty of this on many of there dual format DVDs as well) I guess I'm just being picky, but I imagine that there is some purposeful thinking in doing it this way. I know that there is alot of pressure by the big retailers to provide P&S but it is one thing to simply comply and another to (seemingly) deliberately push P&S by slapping big shiny sticker on Discs essentially saying "HERE IS THE BEAUTIFUL NO BLACK BARS VERSION THAT YOU WANTED" Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it bugs me anyway.

 

[Dan Rudolph]

Currently, there are two shows that air in letterbox format in primetime...they are "Crossing Jordan" and "ER" -- both pretty popular shows.

Also Angel and Enterprise.

 

[Scott D S]

The other problem are salespeople at stores. When someone sees the words "widescreen", they ask the sales attendant about it. The customer says to the sales person, "We don't have a widescreen TV, just a regular TV." The sales person usually gives them the fullscreen version.

I work at Best Buy and I just got my boss' permission to print up a widescreen VS pan and scan pamphlet to use on the salesfloor in the media department. I'm only going to print out a couple of copies for my own personal use (I had wanted to tape them up but space is limited). And this is just the beginning.

 

[Michael Hall]

In addition to these two, and "Angel" and "Enterprise" mentioned by Dan, the new NBC series "Boomtown" and if I'm not mistaken, the WB series "Everwood" air in widescreen. In addition, Fox's "Boston Public" is broadcast (where it's available) in High Def widescreen. So, there are more out there lately.

 

[Patrick McCart]

On a (OAR-) side note: In Australia Napoleon (1927) will be released nexth month. I'm really curious about how the 4.00:1 scenes will be tranfered to dvd.

It's probably the same transfer the laserdisc had (which is excellent). One website says the finale is 16x9 enhanced...but I doubt it.

The older transfer squeezed the finale to 3:1 to use a little more resolution. On DVD, it could finally be shown at 3.99:1.

However......if a DVD was to be made, it would be neat to allow a special offer for those who can do it... have 3 "mini" DVDs with the separate panels for max resolution. Technically, all you need are 3 DVD players and 3 TVs or projectors. I know some fans of the movie would find a way of doing that....heck, at least it would look great on a 16x9 TV.

 

[Adam_WM]

There have been way too many times when I have gone into a 'Joe Public' store like Best Buy, Circuit City, Costco, or (insert name here) and they don't even have these wonderful televisions set up properly themselves.

That's true. Sadly, I work at Circuit City and we have a plasma TV near our entrance. What do we have on it? A stretched 4:3 Earth, Wind, and Fire Live by Request DVD. Why? Because my store manager likes Earth, Wind, and Fire. To top it off, he knows the difference between widescreen and 4:3. He just wants E,W, and F!

 

[greg_t]

I work at Best Buy and I just got my boss' permission to print up a widescreen VS pan and scan pamphlet to use on the salesfloor in the media department. I'm only going to print out a couple of copies for my own personal use (I had wanted to tape them up but space is limited). And this is just the beginning.

Good job Scott. This is what it will take for us to beat Pan and Scan. We have to take it upon ourselves to educate people. People need to see a demo of how unnatural pan and scan looks and see how much image they lose. I have seen the dvd's with the "no black bars" logo, and it is pathetic. Instead of working to improve education for the consumer for the future technology, widescreen, Fox studio has taken a step backwards and caters to a dying technology. Most all of the studios are releasing pan and scam, but haven't gone this far to advertise it. Shame on you Fox studio's.

 

[Patrick Larkin]

Well, besides the fact that Best Buy etc. have their equipment set up wrong, the costs of widescreen TVs are prohibitive. A friend of mine bought a new 36" HDTV and bought a 4x3 Wega because the widescreen tubes were a good $1000 more. And then you are watching regular TV on an even smaller screen. I believe he spend around $1200. So, to get J6P to spend $2000 on a TV or even $1200 is wishful thinking.

 

[WillG]

What bugs me even more is that on those stickers, it clearly describes what you are getting with P&S "NO BLACK BARS" anyway it is very enabling wording for J6P to continue buying P&S. Now when you look at the W/S version, all it says is "Widescreen Special Edition" No "Formatted to preserve the theatrical presentation" or something to that effect that might................just might cause a J6P to scratch his head and think "Maybe this is the right version to get"

I believe that the word Peter Staddon used in that chat was "Committed" when asked about OAR on DVD. What do you say we start acting like that over there.

Yes I know he also said that the average person does not care about OAR even if you go to great lengths to explain it to them, but it does not mean you should hold those people's hands to P&S either.

 

[streeter]

Peter Staddon said in the chat that (I'm paraphrasing) he was committed to WS and that even though there will be seperate P&S releases of some films, everything would be available as originally intended. We basically had nothing to worry about.
I'm not attempting to slam Mr. Staddon - I really respect the guy because he does a terrific job - but then how come Fox is releasing the Baywatch movie (shot 16x9) exclusively in full screen?

 

[John_Berger]

I knew that this was going to be an issue when I heard some individual in a local A/V specialty store say to the sales rep, "Oh, I don't mind the black bars on the sides. I just can't deal with the black bars on the top and bottom."

After he left, I repeated this individual's statement as a question, and the rep just rolled his eyes and said, "That person really is messed up."

Things like this make me realize that the human gene pool needs some chlorine.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Funny, I always find side bars way more obtrusive. It doesn't affect how I view things, but side bars seem far more unnatural from a pure aesthetic standpoint.

Anybody who really hates any kind of bars should build some mattes and shut up.

 

[WillG]

As do I, He seems pretty up front (why studios are so cryptic about issues surrounding releases I really have a hard time understanding) and does seem to care about content as well as preserving OAR. I even praised Fox in an earlier post about releasing W/S and P&S in the same package on more titles recently. However, if you are going to state that you are "Committed" to OAR, the packaging on recent titles should reflect that. This means, no shiny stickers that shun the "Black Bars" and on dual discs, place the OAR spec first on the left instead of "Full Screen" on the left. Have packaging and stickers that make OAR look like the proper choice. Like I said earlier, it's one thing to comply with the requests of the Wal-Mart-esque stores and release P&S but it is another to actively highlight P&S.

Of course, the cynic inside me also says that in reality the only thing that studios are "Committed" to is the Stockholder and you can bet that if Wal-Mart really decided to blackball W/S and said "if you release in W/S not only won't we buy that, but we won't even buy P&S either, you can kiss W/S goodbye. I also suspect that many studios are happy to flood the market with P&S because they really do not want to bother with 2 different formats and are trying to bolster P&S penetration....cough.....universal...cough. Or, I could just be insane.

For the record, I do think Fox is definately one of the top Studios in terms of DVD production. I only wish they had not discontinued the 5 Star Label and for God's sake quit discontinuing 2 disc special editions! There are more enthusists being born every day that now cannot get some of them anymore (myself included).

 

[Chris Lockwood]

Slightly off-topic but hopefully amusing story:

I had a friend with a 4:3 TV and a DVD player that must've been factory-present to 16:9 mode, so anything in widescreen was stretched vertically to fill the screen. At first I thought he was watching P&S movies, and almost gave him the standard lecture. I caught him watching The Green Mile in what I thought was P&S, then I noticed on the box that there's no P&S version on the disc. Once I figured it out, I set his player to the right setting, & explained it to him. He got it, but was upset when he realized how many movies he had watched distorted.

The good news is this shows that some people are watching distorted or P&S versions of movies not by choice, but not understanding the hardware or software. (How was this guy who always had 4:3 sets supposed to realize the player was set wrong?)

A lot of people still seem to think a widescreen disc requires a widescreen set.

 

[Jonny P]

In my opinion, cropping a movie is really a form of editing. We aren't seeing the filmmaker's vision and intended specs when they chop it.

I know soooooooo many people who don't like letterboxing. It drives me nuts. I feel like a lone voice of reason in a sea of ignorance.

The only movies that P&S is "somewhat" acceptable on is the Pixar movies where they go in and redo the scenes with extra information on the top and the bottom of the picture.

Otherwise, it is a really bad form of editing. This is another case in life of having to "dumb it down" for consumers.

People pointed out numerous shows that have the dreaded "black bars." I would have to say that the more shows presented that way will end up helping the cause of widescreen movies on DVD.

I remember, a couple of weeks ago when 'City by the Sea' was released on DVD tuesday, a guy at Best Buy (with his wife) saying, "No honey, that is the widescreen version. We want the full screen version. Where is the full screen version."

Interestingly enough...I would venture to bet good money that the more "ignorant" consumers would continue to buy movies at the same rate if the only versions produced were widescreen.

However, I can guarantee that the more "knowledgable" consumers would buy fewer titles if the only versions produced were "Pan & Scan."

I have yet to meet a consumer -- when their only choice is widescreen -- fail to buy it...even if they would prefer not to have the black bars. They purchase it anyway.

If I am only given the choice of a movie in Pan & Scan format on DVD, I won't buy it.

 

[Dan Rudolph]

Will, why would Wal-Mart do tha? It has no advantage for them. Liek you said, companies are only doing what they think is best for their shareholders. it's not like Wal-Mart has a personal vendetta against w/s.