DVE or Avia????

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by JimHaskell, Feb 8, 2005.

  1. JimHaskell

    JimHaskell Extra

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    My neighbor has lent me both. Assuming a get the time to do it soon, which disk should I use to calibrate my new HT system??

    Or -- is there a benefit to using both?
     
  2. WayneO

    WayneO Supporting Actor

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    I'd use Avia for audio, either for video. Reason being the subwoofer track on DVE is recorded 10dB to hot, but which you can compensate for by calibrating your sub 10db over your other speakers....... And remember 75dB is the calibration level for DVE, 85dB for Avia.
     
  3. Phil Iturralde

    Phil Iturralde Screenwriter

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    AVIA (85 dBc): Audio only for DD-5.1

    DVE (75 dBc): Audio for;
    1) DD-5.1
    2) DD-EX (6.1)


    Have fun REF Calibrating,
    Phil
     
  4. WayneO

    WayneO Supporting Actor

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    Beleive me, just stay away from DVE altogher and you'll be fine with Avia.
     
  5. Phil Iturralde

    Phil Iturralde Screenwriter

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    My my, Wayne, ... is there something that Joe Kane (owner of VE & DVE) did too you???

    Joe Kane Productions (JKP) was founded in 1982 with the intent of assisting the video industry in improving the quality of video. When he started thinking of providing the same set of tools, (first Laser Disk VE - 1996, then DVD VE - 1997) for the consumer's, it was a boon for us that had color TV's larger than 20" @ home. (Got my Toshiba 35" in '95 just before the SuperBowl)

    Now, add the fact that DD-5.1 HT was starting to become hot, the release of Video Essentials DVD in 1997 also included the necessary DD-5.1 test tones (w/dedicated LFE) that early DD-5.1 HT enthusiasts wanted. Those test tones were provided with the assistance from Dolby Labs (creator of 5.1) which includes HTF member Roger Dressler from Dolby Labs in the end DVD credits.

    I own all the above Audio/Video REF Calibration DVD's above, including DVE and for the price ($16.48 w/FREE SH @ DeepDiscoutDVD.com), it's not Audio format obsolete, ... since it includes the latest audio sound format test tones (DD-EX 6.1).

    I personally would not hesitate recommending DVE to anyone.

    Phil
     
  6. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    Phil, JK and JKP didn't do anything to us personally. The 10 dB subwoofer calibration error has been irrefutably validated both in a 2 meter ground plane environment (anechoic), and also by a digital analysis of the LFE track ripped straight from the disc.

    The reason why DVE is not reading obscenely hot on your system is because you have attenuated your LFE (".1") channel exactly 11 dB. I realize this practice gives you the desired results when you switch between music and movies and I'm not here to be critical of that decision.

    It is a fact, however, that attenuating your LFE channel level control 11 dB will essentially eliminate the 10 dB error that has been encoded into this disc.

    This leaves the additional 5 dB that you are still seeing due to the fact that the DVE subwoofer signal is extremely wide in bandwidth with strong signal content to 15 Hz and with a 25-31PCi you are likely seeing some room gain below 30 Hz which will provide this additional 5 dB above and beyond the 10 dB error.

    If you set your LFE channel level control to the unattenuated level (0 on a scale of 0 to -20 on your pre-pro), the DVE subwoofer calibration tone will read about 15 dB too hot in your room, which is exactly what it does on my system.
     
  7. Phil Iturralde

    Phil Iturralde Screenwriter

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    IMHO, ... it doens't matter which as long as you use the correct SPL (85 dBc = AVIA / 75 dBc = DVE) for each DVD respectively.

    As far as LFE is concerned, I wrote back in 1999 @ my website that after your REF Calibrate using either 75 dBc or 85 dBc respectively, ... if the bass sounds too weak or thin, ... raise the level - which many do since they like their bass a bit hot! If it's too low, lower it to your taste. "What you hear or feel - will be your FINAL adjustment."

    Only you can make that determination.

    Phil
     
  8. ChrisWiggles

    ChrisWiggles Producer

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    For video, I use a combination of both.
     
  9. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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  10. Phil Iturralde

    Phil Iturralde Screenwriter

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    That's probably true with some AVR's, ... but with my Yamaha's, ... I'm just REF Calibrating my LFE after I balanced the SWFR level (by ear) with my 2-channel sources and afterwards, I don't touch that again when it's time to REF Calibrated my LFE setting for the whole true LFE pant-moving sub-sonic impact to be impressive and not bloated or unbalanced.

    Again, end result, BALANCED Bass, no adjustment required when switching between ...

    1) 2-channel CD Music w/sub
    .... a) Laser disc; DPL TV Cable broadcast; FM radio; MP3 player; etc.

    2) Blockbuster DD/DTS-5.1/6.1 DVD's

    The end result THAT WE ALL WANT, ... is DOES IT SOUND GLORIOUS???

    Mine does!!! Seamless full-HT impact and dynamic live-like music, ... no matter what source I play.

    Even a technician friend that works @ Dolby Labs in SF loves our (mine & my brother - he has the Yamaha RX-V995 & SVS 25-31PCi), 'better than the better local DD/DTS-5.1/6.1 Cinema Theaters" dynamic and seamless surround sound!

    Isn't that what's its all about???

    Phil
     
  11. WayneO

    WayneO Supporting Actor

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    Two threads now about this and you're still going strong Phil, lol. I don't have to have anything against JKP to say there are easier, more accurate disks to use, or my receiver's test tones for that matter just to do a simple speaker calibration. Do you have stock in JKP? cause you sure want to defend an abvious flaw.

    Yes!, but a flat calibration is nice to have for a reference point of how whatever source you listening to was intended to sound. Then adjust to your preference.
     
  12. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    No, it's true of all AVR's.

    And the fact that the vast majority of AVRs do not even provide an LFE channel attenuation circuit is prima facie evidence that this feature is NOT REQUIRED for proper playback of DD and DTS sources.

    Like I stated above, you are most certainly free to attenuate the 10 dB pre/pro boost from the LFE channel. If that's the way you like how it sounds, all the more power to you. No one is here to stop you from doing this.

    The issue at hand is not your preferred attenuation settings for the LFE channel. This issue is the 10 dB error in the DVE subwoofer calibration tone.

    This DVD cannot be recommended in good faith (as you did above) unless the poster qualifies the recommendation by also acknowledging and disclosing the encoding error (which you failed to do).

    The ONLY reason DVE works for you on subwoofer calibration is because you have knowingly and deliberately attenuated your LFE channel 11 dB.

    For the vast majority of users who leave the LFE channel unattenuated (often per the recommendation in the owner's manual), DVE will result in a subwoofer calibration level that is AT A MINIMUM 10 dB too low, and frequently (with room gain) 13-15 dB too low.

    So I'm not asking you to alter your LFE attenuation settings Phil, I'm asking you to recognize, acknowledge, and disclose the DVE subwoofer calibration error when discussing this DVD or recommending it to others. To do any less is tantamount to deception.
     
  13. Phil Iturralde

    Phil Iturralde Screenwriter

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    Thanks Ed - now I'm being deceptive!

    I didn't create DVE, ... have you contacted Joe Kane & his Legal Department??? Maybe you should take 'legal action' against his DVE LFE calibration level test tone 'deception' that you've documented!

    FYI: I don't personally use DVE to REF Calibrate my HT System! My results for DVE were just noted after adjusting the Master Volume Control knob = 75 dBc. I REF Calibrate using Dolby Labs DD-EX DVD.

    Phil
     
  14. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    I never said you were being deceptive, Phil - I apologize if that was implied. I was stating that anyone who was aware that DVE was defective, and yet still recommended it to others without disclosing the same would be acting deceptively.

    I have no intention of contacting the JKP Legal Department. My only intention is to make others aware of why the DVE disc blows the sound level meter off the chart when the subwoofer tone starts playing. It was confusing a LOT of people when DVE first came out, and collectively we finally figured out why.

    All the best, Phil.
     
  15. BruceD

    BruceD Screenwriter

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    Edward,

    Thanks for the revealing info!! I think all newbies should be aware of pitfalls that await them when trying to correctly calibrate their systems.

    It is an unfortunate result of the www environment that many simply perpetuate information that is less than correct.

    It is always useful to have facts on the table when trying to make decsions and I applaud your efforts to uncover all the truth. [​IMG]

    The biggest problem most people face is the bass response of the room (as you have stated repeatedly). It's simply that the RS SPL meter and calibration DVD or processor tone typically hides the room's specific frequency peaks and nulls behind a single SPL calibration number (i.e. you don't really know what is causing the SPL level on the meter, source signal or room peak).

    It is quite surprising to realize (view on a graph) what the true bass response of your system (speakers plus room) is with something like ETF5 measurement software.
     
  16. Vince Maskeeper

    Vince Maskeeper Producer

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    This is interesting: On your receiver you attenuate the LFE channel back 11db and this results in "balanced" bass? Something must be drastically wrong. In order to get the "proper" calibration level from VE (or a compensated reating from DVE)-- then you must be making up this 11 db of gain loss by raising the overall subwoofer level...

    So this means, at the very least, that rerouted bass from DVD main channels is 11 db louder than genuine LFE (if you run any speakers in your system as small). It also likely means your sub level for two channel music is 11db raised in relation to "normal" playback level. I can't imagine this sounds "balanced" unless the yamaha has some issues with bass levels to begin with.

    Or maybe you just have a different taste in balance. Maybe it was your car that drove by last night farting out subsonic polution that woke me from my peaceful slumber.

    lol

    -V
     
  17. Phil Iturralde

    Phil Iturralde Screenwriter

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    Never had a car with a powered-sub that would damage your hearing (though my Pilot 6-spkr system includes a powered sub), never liked that kind of bloated unbalanced bass sound.

    Phil
     
  18. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    You're not kidding, Bruce. I have discovered that most subwoofers in my room exhibit a pronounced peak in the 55-75 Hz region. This is likely a combination of room acoustics, the asymmetrical HPF and LPF in the digital BM circuit (which you have solved nicely with the Marchand unit), and the anechoic FR of the subwoofer itself. Many of the subs show a peak in this region anechoic, and this peak is not always completely mitigated with typical room gain on the low end.

    I've resorted to using the PEQ on review units to obtain a reasonably flat in-room response +/- 3 dB before proceeding to music and movie reviews. While initially I was thinking this would give the review subwoofer an unfair advantage, but using a PEQ to knock out mid-bass room modes really doesn't change the inherent performance of the unit in terms of deep extension, distortion limited output, dynamic range, etc.

    I really can't properly subjectively evaluate the unit and compare it against my reference standard until at a minimum I spend a few minutes with ETF-5 or TrueRTA and the Rane PE-17 to achieve a fairly benign in-room FR.
     

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