DVDProducers - a plea for a new layerchange standard.

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Peter Hollandare, Oct 31, 2001.

  1. Peter Hollandare

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    I know a lot of dvdproducers,mediaproducers reads HTF, (why shouldent they, HTF simply rocks!).
    Here's my plea and suggestions, to improve todays dvdmovies, and make them even better.
    I dont ask for much (i hope), and know its easy for you dvdproducers to hold the cut for a few seconds.
    That is all it takes, to get a perfect layerchange. Even with the most impossible dvdplayer, where the
    layerchanges are more noticeable than other players, with anyting from instant change to a few seconds. Depending
    of what dvdplayer you own. I own 2 Pioneer, a dvf-727 and dv-444, these players are good in general, but handle
    layerchanges very bad.
    My suggestions are, instead of like today, where you cut in layerchanges in the middle of a scene, put it inbetween a scenechange - that
    would improve the dvd's a whole lot, and make most of us whiners happy [​IMG]
    Even the best releases today, rated as "reference discs" have utterly bad layerchanges.
    Saving Private Ryan, just to mention one. Where the layerchange is in the middle of a scene(1:25:36, in chapter 12 - dts version), instead of in
    between a scene change. A good sample of a disc with good layerchange is Hannibal, where they managed to
    do exact what im suggesting.
    Imo, the only thing left, to get perfect copies, is to make layerchanges between 2 scenes -
    a standard.
    Im sure some dvdproducers practice this as "standard" today, but i get tears in my eyes, when i notice that,
    movies produced today, still suffer from this.
    Thanks for taking your time, reading this.
    Peter Hollandare
     
  2. Rob Lutter

    Rob Lutter Producer

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    To the best of my understanding... there is a small small window for a layer change to be placed inside... therefore results will vary.
    I would like to suggest seamless layer changes (ala Superbit DVDs) on all DVDs though... it uses seamless branching to hide the layer change (though I haven't seen it in action yet).
    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
    My DVD Collection/ AIM: roblutter/ email:[email protected]
    "Why, that's the biggest Kahn since Genghis" -Sealab 2021
     
  3. LarryH

    LarryH Supporting Actor

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    I would certainly appreciate more attention being paid to this issue. I never minded flipping laserdisks between sides, but having a scene just come to a jarring stop freeze-frame is seriously distracting. I'm sure a lot of players do much better than my relatively high end one, but I'm not about to dump it on this account. I guess just throwing in a black screen for the layer change would disrupt viewing on those more adept players. Anyhow, I just wish they would keep in mind that apparently a lot of players don't make this change invisibly.
     
  4. DarrenA

    DarrenA Second Unit

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  5. Scott Simonian

    Scott Simonian Screenwriter

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    Im all for the "seamless-branching" technique for layer changes. I have the Superbit of Desporado and I never saw the layer change.
    I many care just cause my dvd player likes to be inconsistent with bad layer changes. It will skip a chapter sometimes in various movies.
    ------------------
    Yes, these are bruises from fighting. Yes, I am comfortable with that. I am enlightened.
     
  6. Reginald Trent

    Reginald Trent Screenwriter

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    I agree that this is an issue that needs serious attention.
    I also think this would probably serve us better if it were moved to the Studio and Manufactuers Forum.
     
  7. Han

    Han Second Unit

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    1) I've never liked the idea of comparing layer changes of DVD players to "the good ol' days of LD". Just because an old system was horrible doesn't mean we should settle for a system that's still somewhat bad.
    2) This whole small window to place a layer change thing. That may be true (I dunno), but I've seen movies switch layers at 30minutes and others that switch at 80minutes in. That tells me even if there is a small window on the disc itself, you can still move the physical location of the supplements around to get the "window" somewhere where a layer change can be reasonable.
    3) I'm for making DVDs change layers like Superbits DVDs from now on, but there is still an enormous backlog of old DVDs that have bad layer changes. I doubt studios will go back (with the current DVD format at least) just to change the location of the layer change. What I think can alleviate the problem is that every DVD hardware manufacturers putting buffers on their players like Denon does. I can't believe we've gone through 4 or 5 generations of players now, and the early companies like Toshiba/Sony/etc. still haven't put buffers into their players to solve the problem. Don't the people who engineer these DVD players ever watch DVDs on the machines they make?
     
  8. Ed Vandeweerd

    Ed Vandeweerd Stunt Coordinator

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    Hi
    I agree more attention needs to be paid to layer changes and making them not noticeable. I think the worst layer change I ever saw was on Artisan's "Stir of Echoes" with Kevin Bacon. Perhaps that could be used as a reference disc for how "Not" to do a layer change? Would Seemless Branching Solve the Problem?
    ------------------
    Ed Vandeweerd
    [email protected]
    my collection
     
  9. Dave H

    Dave H Producer

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    If DVDs can be made to not notice the layer change, great. However, a 1-2 sec. layer changes doesn't bother me at all. I would rather see efforts go into making even more superb tansfers.
     
  10. LarryH

    LarryH Supporting Actor

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    I certainly don't think the laserdisk side change is better than the DVD layer change, but I still think going to a black screen is less jarring than having the action just freeze up. If this could be implemented on DVD without messing up players with a quick layer change, I would like it. I'm perfectly content to live with this minor issue, but even minor issues can be handled in the best way. I do think my screen often freezes for more than 1/2 second, however.
    By the way, I have one of the old laserdisk players than holds two disks and can play four sides without having to get up. How clunky is that? [​IMG]
     
  11. Colin Davidson

    Colin Davidson Second Unit
    Supporter

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    I am in total agreement with Han's 3rd point. It would be easier for manufacturers to put buffers in their players and thus cover ALL DVD releases, even the ones with bad layer changes. With the price of RAM being what it is these days I cant imagine that adding this would significantly raise the price of players currently on the market.
     

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