DVD-Video & DVD-Audio Digital Interface announced (1 Viewer)

[Will]

LFE channel, which by the way, I hope I never see in DVD-Audio music

Typically is there an active LFE channel, or not, on DVD-A music?

 

[Charles J P]

Given the infancy of the formats, I would say its difficult to determine what's typical. However, there are already releases that have an LFE track IIR.

 

[Greg Br]

Ok I am new to this game, in fact I just bought all my equiptment before xmas.....can somebody give me this article in plan english, what is the bottom line, are all receivers and dvd players useless?????

 

[Charles J P]

are all receivers and dvd players useless?????

Well, it depends on your definition of useless. I think under most definitions, this would be an extreme statement though. Look at it this way. DVD players and receivers still function fine with each other. The general issues in this thread only affect the new SACD and DVD-A format. The issues specifically regarding the digital interface really only affect DVD-A at this point. My point of contention has been to put it as simply and boiled down as possible.... regarding DVD-A in my humble opinion, if manufacturers make it so that the only way to get bass management and time alignment is to buy a new receiver with this digital input, then the format will fail b/c people will buy SACD. If, on the other hand, someone creates a DVD-A player with bass management and time alignement done by the player and all sent out the 5.1 analog outputs then they will have a goldmine, and people will flock to it.

To be perfectly honest, I am not all that up to date on SACD right now. According to someone in this thread, some SACD player will do bass management on the actual SACDs and pass that through the analog outs. I have no idea if this is true, and I have no idea if any SACD players will do time alignment. I do know that no digital interface has been anounced for SACD.

 

[Will]

I wonder if DVD-A players that incoporate the yet-to-be-decided copy protection standard will be available by CES 2003.

 

[Stan T]

I purchased the new Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX receiver and it allows for full bass management on DVD-audio or SACD through the 5.1 analog inputs. It has crossovers of 80, 100, 150 & 200. You also can access the tone controls & change speaker sizes through the multi-channel in adjust mode.
Until I purchased this receiver I didn't like the sound of DVD-audio at all. Now that I can do bass management through the receiver it sounds incredible. I wasn't even aware the receiver had this option when I purchased it.
There is a review of the receiver in "Sound & Vision" this month. They called it the perfect receiver. It's the best receiver that I have heard for movies or music. If you're interested in purchasing the receiver you can pick it up at www.soundpros.com for around $2600 total - that includes shipping. They're great to deal with. That's a great price considering it retails for $4200.

 

[Philip Hamm]

Great sales pitch Stan. Actually that's cool that new receivers can do analog bass management through the 5.1 ins.

I have a demo disc that came with my Technics DVD-A10 that is DVD-A without MLP, and bass management works on both the Technics and the RP-91, however, it's the only DVD-A disc I've come acrross that doesn't use MLP.

Don't know about the RP91 but the DVD-A10 can't do bass management while decoding DTS either.
Ever since buying my ICBM bass management has become a non-concern for me. It's moved from a source of frustration to an easy to use no-brainer. Now that I've moved to separates with the ICBM between the amp and the pre it's even less of an issue.
The ICBM cost a mere $250 and it a top notch piece that solves the bass management issue very smartly.

 

[Charles J P]

The ICBM cost a mere $250 and it a top notch piece that solves the bass management issue very smartly.

Well, I think bass management is more important to getting the most out of the format, but I think time alignement is important too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesnt the default assume that all your speakers are the same distance from the "sweet spot"? I think there are many people who have their surrounds closer than the front three, and time alignment would be useful. I agree that the ICBM is a good solution, and I saw in this month or last months S&V that some other company has effectively copied it. I guess I would see that in the future, this type of functionality will be included in the players, so why pay extra for an external box.

Now, maybe someone can clear up a few things about SACD for me. Are there any SACD players out there that do bass management and time alignement? Also, if DVD-A is MLP,what is the recorded format on SACD?

 

[ChrisA]

I purchased the new Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX receiver and it allows for full bass management on DVD-audio or SACD through the 5.1 analog inputs.

Well, there certainly is no question that bass management derived from analog outputs from SACD/DVD-A players is available, and should be/is quite commonplace amongst processor manufacturers, it is a very big kick in the butt to have to go through multiple D/A, A/D, D/A conversion steps. Since you are only as good as the weakest link, /I can't fathom having multiple conversion steps in the pathway. DVD-A and SACD are high resolution pathways and the multiple conversion processes simply degrade the 'resolution'. I certainly hope digital outputs become commonplace very soon, because $40,000 retail is too much to pay to have a pure digital pathway (ala Meridian 800/861).

Full bass management is necessary, but when done via multiple D/A, A/D, D/A, kills the appeal of SACD/DVD-A. I am a fan of DVD-A and multichannel music and I hope more DVD-A titles come soon. At this point in time I do not care about 2.0 channel or SACD for that matter. In any case, it is multichannel music that interests me more than what format is used.

 

[John Morris]

Are there any SACD players out there that do bass management and time alignement?

Not that I know of...

 

[John Kotches]

Charles,
No SACD players to date have both bass management and time alignment. THe Sony multi-channel players have bass management as do the newest announced players from Philips.
Meridian Lossless Packing is not a format, it's a lossless compression algorithm. DVD-Audio is the format. The method of encoding is linear PCM. Tricky, tricky, tricky.
SACD is the format. It uses a lossless compression algorithm called Direct Stream Transfer. The method of encoding is Direct Stream Digital.
Yes, time alignment would be helpful, but since all the DSP cycles are taken up unpacking MLP, there's no cycles left over for bass management or time alignment. All speakers equidistant is the assumption, and even setting up for a 2' difference requires DSP cycles that aren't available.
Regards,

 

[Charles J P]

THe Sony multi-channel players have bass management as do the newest announced players from Philips.

Well, maybe Multi-channel SACD is more for me than DVD-A then. I am really not that concerned with time alignement, but bass management is a must. I dont understand the "multiple D/A, A/D, D/A conversions" though. I realized the bass management done in the digital domain is the most ideal, but if you do it with an ICBM for example, the DVD-A player still just decodes the DVD-A and sends it out on its merry way. If I take it into my ICBM, apply bass management, and send it out analog (there is no A/D then D/A process on the ICBM) then bring it into my receiver and play it directly through then all I am doing is amping the analog signal. So I only count one D/A conversion, its just in the player instead of in the receiver. I would like the bass managament facilities of the ICBM or something similar to be available in a player just to avoid having that extra 5.1 connection to make. It sounds like I can get this from the sony SACD models, but not from any DVD-A player yet. Is that accurate?

 

[ChrisA]

I would like the bass managament facilities of the ICBM or something similar to be available in a player just to avoid having that extra 5.1 connection to make.

Well, using two sets of analog cabling is also undesireable, but it doesn't cost $40,000 like a Meridian 800/861 either

 

[John Morris]

Are you saying that the ICBM uses analog crossovers and all analog processing?

YES! You can check it out here: Outlaw ICBM

 

[Craig F]

The ICBM is 100% analog.

The Pioneer Elite VSX-49TX converts to digital in order to do the Bass Mangement.

 

[Charles J P]

Like others have replied, the ICBM is totally analog.

Time alignment, bass management, individual level control, are all part of "management". Why would SACD "be more you" if it offers less? What does multichannel SACD offer better than DVD-A?

Well, I guess I thought it had been established that some new SACD players DO do bass management. This is not available on DVD-A unless you go with an outboard crossover like the ICBM.

Is level control handled by standard receivers on the 5.1 inputs, or just on digital inputs? If you could have an SACD player with bass management or an ICBM, and the receiver does channel level control (does it?) then all that would leave is time alignement, which is really the easiest to correct with speaker placement. I dont claim to be an expert on these new formats. What would be helpful to me, is if someone would describe a theoretical, "best" way to hook up each format, given..

1) a standard SACD or DVD-A unit available for sale now

2) access to outboard crossovers avaliable now, such as the ICBM

3) this theoretical system would be connected to a standard, non-flagship receiver like the Denon 3802, Onkyo 898, Yamaha, Marantz, etc.

Anyone want to take a crack? I learn best from examples.

 

[John Kotches]

Charles,

Several DVD-A players do offer bass management for DVD-A, like the Denon 4800, Kenwood 5700 and 5900. These are for sale today.

Players announced at CES from Denon (1600, 3800 and 9000), EAD (DVD Master) and others will offer bass management for DVD-Audio.

In addition, the Cinepro DTC-10 preamp/processor will offer analog domain bass management on its multi-channel input.

If by level controls, you mean channel trims/calibration, the 5.1 output of the player (DVD-A or SACD) should provide calibration tones, and trim adjustments. You do the trim on the player, and use the preamp/processor (or receiver) as the volume control.

Consider this configuration, utilizing the Pioneer DV-47A, SACD+DVD-A multi-channel player, announced at CES:

Analog output of DV-47A --> ICBM ---> 5.1 input of Receiver. You now have bass management for multi-channel SACD and DVD-A. You can also use this for playing back CDs and doing bass management if you prefer the sound of the Pioneers internal DACs over your receivers.

Digital output of DV-47A --> Receiver. You can decode DD+DTS, apply bass management and time alignment in the digital domain for DD/DTS, and if you desire CD and DAD (24bit/96K PCM DVD-Video discs).

Regards,

 

[John Kotches]

Charles, adding on to my previous post.
Presently, all bass management for DVD-A and SACD is very limited, single crossover frequency, large or small speakers, and no time alignment.
Until I have an opportunity to look at the latest offerings, I won't know for sure wither bass management and time alignment are being offered, and whether the flexibility of the crossovers is being improved. While some manufacturers have said the crossovers will have more flexibility, I'd like to see it delivered in a product before I agree
Regards,

 

[ChrisA]

Well you get what you pay for to some extent. So the ICBM is basically an analog crossover network. No time alignment, pots for channel level control? 2 sets of analog interconnects? SOUNDS LIKE CAR AUDIO TO ME Hey, I'm not picking on a product that is offering a great price, I'm more dissapointed that their aren't products like Meridan 800/861 for about a tenth of the price. Of course, that is why most of us are bithcing about the lack of a standardized digital output for DVD-A. I guess the ICBM will serve a purpose, but it is not something that I could entertain, although for its price I would certainly recommend it to others looking to fullfill that price point.

 

[Jaehoon Heo]

Maybe I am repeating somebody already said, but let me add a comment on hybrid SACD.

I believe the main reason Sony doesn't release hybrid SACD is that they cannot guarantee 100% compatibility with existing CD players. DVD layer can bother the CD players badly that they can not read the CD layer well. Some people told me that even recent CD-ROM drives have problem with hybrid SACD's.

I was in DVD forum for some months, and DVD-forum, as far as I know, stopped pursuing hybrid DVD-A option due to the compatibility problem. DVD forum's decision seems considerate, even though they could make some false advertisement on hybrid DVD-A like Sony did.

Actually, 2 DVD layers and a CD layer can be on a single disc, as their depth from the surface are all different. But optically, they can interfere with the others.