DVD-Video & DVD-Audio Digital Interface announced (1 Viewer)

[Will]

Hi John,

That sounds great! I'll be looking forward to any light

you can shine on this!

We've all been hearing over a year the digital DVD-A

interface is waiting until the studios can get comfortable

with a copy protection mechanism. It sounds like maybe

the copy protection mechanism is still being thrashing out.

Hopefully this will be resolved and hopefully, they'll agree

on a DVD-A digital interface that INCLUDES some type of copy

protection mechanism that the studios approve of.

Will

 

[John Kotches]

Will,
To the best of my knowledge Madrigal (and their parent Harman Kardon) aren't part of WG-4. While Todd might have good info from inside sources, I wouldn't call his comments "authoritative" without attribution to a source within WG-4.
Copy protection is part of why it's only a 0.9 spec. This doesn't mean that companies can't start work on the physical interface. Copy protection would be a logical layer that rides on top of the physical interface.
Besides, it's about time Digital Harmony gets to ship some of those chipsets out from their warehouse
Regards,

 

[Joe Cole]

Mr. Kotches, I do understand the financial modivation of Sony but is the DVD-A group doing it for free?

 

[Mark Duffield]

For what it's worth, there's a followup to that story where Bob Stuart of Meridian also urges caution. Heres the URL-
http://www.highfidelityreview.com/ne...snumber=424422

 

[John Kotches]

Joe,
You lost me there -- what exactly do you mean by "doing it for free". No context is provided before you slipped into the pronoun.
Thanks

 

[Will]

Mark's link to the High Fidelity URL makes it clear there's
currently no copy protection agreement for digital DVD-A.
Here are some snippets from the link:

While the interface specifics may be nearing completion, the copy protection issue remains as confused as ever.
--
The DVD Forum does not deal with copy protection. That technology will be chosen from a totally separate and independent entity.

 

[PatrickM]

We probably won't see any digital connection capable DVD-A players and receivers this year or even next with the track recorder the content providers have had for choosing a copy protection scheme. Sad.

Patrick

 

[Will]

I plan on talking to a few members of WG-4s representatives at CES, so perhaps more information will be available after the show.

Hi John,

Were you able to confirm the latest spec lacks the details for any approved copy protection scheme? As I understand it, this is necessary before the spec can go into production. Incidentally, as I recall (please correct me if I'm wrong), for over a year, getting a copy protection agreement has been a reason for not being able to finalize a digital DVD-A interface. Now that CES has come and gone, do the WG-4 folks have some idea when copy protection will be decided?

Thanks!

Will

 

[Charles J P]

Well, I havent had time to read page 2 of this thread, but to echo some others' comments about thea fear of how a new digital interface will affect current gear, I will personally bet you that 12-18 months from the average DVD-A/SACD player will have full bass management, time delay, and 5.1 analog outs. It will be the rarity that would have a new digital audio interface on the player side and even more rare on the pre/pro side. I also predict the unit mentioned above without the digital interface will cost about $400 and will sound better than the current DVD-A & SACD players that creep into the thousands. You heard it here first

 

[John Kotches]

Will,
Nope, no copy protection yet. It's still being worked on.
Pioneer showed prototype IEEE1394, but as with any prototype, things will undoubtedly change.
I talked with a few more individuals about Firewire as a solution, and seemed to find some like minded people with respect to the Firewire option.

 

[Will]

Charles,
Maybe as you suggest in 12-18 months DVD-A players will do both time alignment and bass management, in the player before doing D/A, and then outputting 6 analog signals, just like DVD-A players currently output 6 analog signals. I think you also suggest that this will become commonplace before we get digital DVD-A outputs, perhaps because of the industry not being able to resolve the copy protection issues in a timely fashion.

 

[John Kotches]

Well I have to admit I was surprised to see more movement on the DVD-A front for digital transmission than on the SACD front.

Pioneer showed an IEEE1394 prototype player and receiver.

Sharp, Muse, Meridian and Denon showed proprietary transfer of DVD-A, with Sharp also having proprietary transfer for SACD.

Cary Audio demonstrated a DVD-Audio player as well.

You have missed a point, that the tools for time alignment and bass management already are in place for DVD-A, and to do all the processing within the DVD player in the digital domain is not practical.

I have not confirmed the level of data out of the Sharp, Muse and Denon solutions to this point, but have e-mail inquiries out to determine where the MLP decode occurs. The Meridian solution does the MLP decode in the DVD player, with encrypted transmission of the PCM data to the processor.

Philips had SACD units with bass management at attractive price points (US$650 and US$300) but I only got to look at pictures on the players, no sound. The US$650 (model 962) was especially attractive to me, as it hit all the right buttons (no chroma bug, Faroudja de-interlacing and multi-channel SACD in one chassis).

Marantz supposedly had more than the SA-14 and SA-12 on display, but when I went by the booth I did not get to see them.

Interesting that there was more progress in terms of digital transmission than I anticipated for DVD-A, and Sharp (formerly SACD only) was a big surprise for me.

Both SACD and DVD-A are becoming more common, and the Pioneer Universal solution has the potential of being a good "all-in-one" answer if they've addressed some chroma issues.

Regards,

 

[Charles J P]

You have missed a point, that the tools for time alignment and bass management already are in place for DVD-A, and to do all the processing within the DVD player in the digital domain is not practical.

Really, then could you point me to a player that does this correctly. Why is this not practical.

 

[Will]

John,

I think Charles is saying is in 12-18 months, it may be practical to do time alignment and bass management for DVD-A in the digital domain, within the DVD-A player. It would of course be done in the digital domain in the pre/pro instead, but it can't until standardized digital DVD-A with copy protection is available, and the suspicion is no digital copy protection standard will be implemented anytime soon.

Will

 

[John Kotches]

Will and Charles,

Why would we want a DVD-A player to duplicate the functionality (Bass Management and Time Alignment) which is already available in our receivers/processors?

The 0.9 spec has the MLP decode in the player (where it belongs) followed by a pass of the PCM data to the processor. The processor can do whatever DSP work is required or desired before passing the datastream to the onboard DACs.

Otherwise, you're investing in two sets of DSPs to do the same function (Bass Management and Time Alignment). One of the points of going to this method is you only buy one device to do a function, instead of duplicating it throughout the system.

Regards,

 

[Will]

John,

As I understand it, the 0.9 spec does not have the copy protection the music studio's require in order to allow DVD-A to pass digitally from DVD-A player to pre/pro and we have no idea when the copy protection will be defined. Nobody wants to have duplicate time alignment/bass management. It's not by choice! But until copy protection is defined in a way the studio's are happy with, is there a better alternative to having time alignment/bass management performed within the DVD-A player, before D/A'ing and going out the DVD-A player's analog outputs?

Will

 

[Charles J P]

Will and Charles,
Why would we want a DVD-A player to duplicate the functionality (Bass Management and Time Alignment) which is already available in our receivers/processors?

Because we dont. List the all the pre-pros available right now that will do bass management and time alignement on the 5.1CH inputs. Its less than a handful. Now list the ones under $1000. Its zilch. Now, a year to 18 months from now, there will be some prepros out there that have the new digital interface, but it will be a handful. Name the ones under $1000 and it will still probably be zero. So, applying those figures to the number of units in the field... a DVD-A/SACD player that does time alignment and bass managament before passing the signal out 5.1 analog outs will be a lot more sought after than this digital interface vaporware.

 

[John Kotches]

Charles,
I get your point, but you aren't getting mine.
The only thing that's needed to add the capability within the receiver is the digital interface. DSPs have the MIPs to do the rest of the work.
How long will it be? My guess is 6 months after the standard for copy protection is approved on DVD-A.
The real issue here is the record companies, who seem to have their heads so far up their collective butts all they can see are teeth.
I'll bet you we don't see bass management and time alignment in DVD-A players going out the analog outputs by CES 2003, care to make the wager?
Regards,

 

[Will]

I'll bet you we don't see bass management and time alignment in DVD-A players going out the analog outputs by CES 2003, care to make the wager?

Personally, I'm not too interested in when bass management and time alignment will go out of DVD-A players analog outputs. I'm much more interested in when a standard for copy protection will go out DVD-A players digitally, and into pre/pro's digitally.

John, do you have any wager on that date?

 

[Charles J P]

I get your point, but you aren't getting mine.

The only thing that's needed to add the capability within the receiver is the digital interface.

No, I get your point, your not getting mine. I was trying not to make up figures, but to get my point accross, there are 80 million receivers out there with 5.1 analog ins, and a year from now, there will by 90 million with analog ins, and 8 million with this new digital "standard". The manufacturers will have more incentive to create products that are compatible with whats out there. If they decide to take a route that forces people into buying new pre-pros, the formats will go down in flames!