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DVD-V With Lossless 5.1 Audio

Discussion in 'Playback Devices' started by PhilBoy, Oct 30, 2003.

  1. PhilBoy

    PhilBoy Second Unit

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    Do you think we will ever see lossless 5.1, 6.1 etc. audio on DVD-V ?

    DD and dts are lossy and do suffer from some compression anomalies.

    With the advancements in laser technology do you think there will ever be enough room on a disc for higher resolution soundtracks ?

    Wouldn't that be amazing for concert DVD's ?
     
  2. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Philboy,

    What you are asking for is called DVD-Audio [​IMG]

    Regards,
     
  3. PhilBoy

    PhilBoy Second Unit

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    No, not DVD-A... DVD-V. Full length movies with lossless sound.
     
  4. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Phil,

    It won't happen with the current DVD environment, there is insufficient bandwidth to deliver both at acceptable quality levels.

    It is more likely that one of the proposed HD-DVD solutions (Blu-ray by Sony, Philips et al, AOD by Hitachi, Toshiba et al) will have this as an option.

    Regards,
     
  5. Lew Crippen

    Lew Crippen Executive Producer

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  6. Tim Hoover

    Tim Hoover Screenwriter

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  7. PhilBoy

    PhilBoy Second Unit

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    Lew,

    Compression techniques are what is causing the anomalies/artifacts.

    As I get more and more into HT I seem to be finding the limitations of mpeg, DD, and dts and even CD.

    What I am finding are the 'quirks' of codecs now currently used in digital audio/video reproduction. Don't get me wrong, home electronics have made strides in the past decade or so, but there seems to be a limit to reproduction which is dictated by software capacities; DVD, CD, hard disc etc.

    In order to get the 'necessary' digital information on these media a compromise has to be made by compressing the digital information to 'fit'.

    I am sure that we would all love to see an uncompressed 1080P flick with with an uncompressed 5.1 soundtrack in our homes.

    As digital capacities increase exponentially maybe in the next 10 years or so we will see a 1080P movie.

    The folks who design these codecs are much smarter than I, but lately I have been noticing more and more of the 'gliches' inherent to compression. Not at the fault of the programmers, we consumers are getting used to a certain standard.

    Ya, I know I'm dreaming, but when a guy like me starts getting annoyed with artifacts, it's time to sharpen the pencil.

    Maybe we could get the dudes from the RIAA to spend more money on research and less on lawyers.

    Anyone care to calculate the bandwidth necessary for true uncompressed HD ?
     
  8. PhilBoy

    PhilBoy Second Unit

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    Sorry Tim ... typo, meant lossy.
     
  9. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Philboy says:

     
  10. Peter_Al

    Peter_Al Auditioning

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    Problem is the industry seems to like compression as it also doubles as copy protection.

    I just discovered that the MLP 5.1 (lossless compressed 40% 96K/24bit) audio stream coming out of my DVD-A player does NOT come out on the digital out as the recording industry requested that high res/non compressed audio NOT be outputted digitally on DVD players. Now I have to hook up all my speaker outs on my DVD player to the receiver (lots of bloody wiring).

    BTW... MLP 5.1 basically takes up all the bandwidth the DVD has.. nothing left for video. So you can imagine what is required if you want this plus uncompressed 1080P vid [​IMG]
     
  11. PhilBoy

    PhilBoy Second Unit

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    John K.,

    WHOA! Thanks. I'm impressed.

    I wasn't trying to be a knob... just make a point.

    But, back up 'state of the art' specs to 10 years ago. The numbers look high now. What was leading edge in '93?

    In the next few years as we all become 'used' to current standards, we will expect more in quality... otherwise we would still be communicating by Morse code.

    Do you think Mr. Morse could have comprehended transmitting the entire contents of the Bible, both Old and New Testament in a second in an e-mail.....

    Thanks again John,

    that puts things in perspective.
     
  12. Heath_E

    Heath_E Stunt Coordinator

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  13. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Peter_Al says:

     
  14. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Heath,

    That's 2.2 Terabytes for an uncompressed 1080p presentation at 60 frames/second (fps). You can cut it down to just under a Terabyte if you goto 24 fps.

    You can also save space by going component at 4:2:2 without other compression.

    Regardless, I believe I made the point abundantly clear that uncompressed video is an enormous consumer of storage.

    Regards,
     
  15. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Philboy,

    To be honest, it is not realistic to expect uncompressed video anytime in the forseeable future (< 10 years time).

    If I were to float a casual estimate I would say a minimum of 25 years, but that's just a WAG.

    Regards,
     
  16. PhilBoy

    PhilBoy Second Unit

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    In perspective, in '97 the biggest HD I could get was 3GB...

    Half the size required for an mpeg2 movie release.

    Interesting point about 24fps halfing the file size... 30fps conversion presents it's own issues. Gotta love NTSC standards.

    I think MLP also halfs file size w/o loss. That is good.

    I know WM9 is a contender for HD DVD. I tried to get T2 Extreme to work on my PC, but it's too slow.

    Is WM9 a good codec ?
     
  17. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Philboy,

    There is nothing even planned on the horizon for consumer distribution that will have sufficient capacity for uncompressed HD video. HD-DVD? 50GB or so maximum.

    Hard drives aren't particularly practical as a distribution media, they're too prone to failure in comparison to optical media, too expensive and it's going to be a while before they have enough capacity to do this.

    Without being rude, I believe what you're looking for at this point in time would have to be categorized as "Pipe Dream", regardless of the growth of hard drive storage.

    As far as WM9 being a good codec, it is. Typically speaking operations that require substantial general purpose cycles can be done quite efficiently in a dedicated ASIC for the task. I suspect the ASICs that will be used in the upcoming WM9 capable DVD players will be roughly US$5/each in OEM qtys.

    Regards,
     
  18. PhilBoy

    PhilBoy Second Unit

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    John,

    Oh, I know uncompressed HD video and even sound is a total 'pipe dream'...

    I started the thread reqarding lossless compression for sound that would fit onto dvd with full video.

    Compression is here for a long, long time. Congress's bandwidth limit of 18,000,000 bits/sec. for DTV has dictated that. Right or wrong I have read that a 720/60p signal will have to be compressed 49:1.

    I only hope that a near lossless codec for audio/video that will fit software capacity and hardware bandwidth will be developed and adopted.

    I find that today's commercially available codecs are very limited.
     
  19. PhilBoy

    PhilBoy Second Unit

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    Oh ya... I wasn't suggesting HD's for distribution media, I was only using them as a recognizable volume of data.
     
  20. Robert AG

    Robert AG Stunt Coordinator

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    I don't see that there will be uncompressed audio with video anytime soon. Storage space is too valuable, even on advanced format discs, to allocate all the space that would be required for audio in it's uncompressed state. More to the point, the film companies are marketing to the "average" consumer, and DD and DTS are fine for them.

    I work professionally in movie sound mixing and editing, and I just don't see this happening for a very long time, if at all.

    I am usually shocked when the Dolby Digital master is made, after hearing the unaltered sound elements for several weeks straight: there is degredation in the sound quality, but if you did not have the original master to compapare it to, the DD version would not sound all that bad.
     

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