DVD Picture Quality vs LD Picture Quality (1 Viewer)

[ChristopherDAC]

Mr. Klein:
I believe, actually, that the DVNR is applied to the recomosited video as well as the S output, though I am not sure. In any case, the reason for the recompositing would stand to reason to be that the Y/C separation is performed together with the digital timebase correction and dropout compensation; since all these operations require a memory circuit, it only makes sense to integrate them. Now, if you are absolutely sure that your display's comb filter is of a higher grade than that in your player, it does make sense to try the composite output, since [at least with the DVNR off] the imperfectly separated chroma may be mixed back in by a basically transparent process, so that the actual chroma can be separated out again and cross-colour and cross-luminance artefacts avoided.
In any case, I like to depress a little button on the front of my 704 when I turn it on, marked "DVNR OFF". This cuts out all processing except the necessary, so that the eventual output signal is as close to "raw" as possible. For better than that, I guess you would need an industrial LD-V8000.


Mr. Boulet:
While my current viewing environment is such that my display choices are normally a small 4:3 television at several screen heights distance or a computer monitor uncomfortably close up, my judgements are based on extensive viewing of LDs and DVDs on various apparatus, including projectors [LCD and DLP, but sadly not CRT to any great extent] of 4:3 and 16:9 native ratios. I am looking into picking up an older DLP video projection unit for use as a secondary computer monitor and video display. Players I ordinarily use for LD are the CLD-D704 and an old Karaoke machine called a CLD-V710; I have seen various DVD reproducing mechanisms, but most of my DVD viewing time has been spent with HTPCs of various ilks.
I should point out, for purposes of clarification, that most of the programme material I am interested [back catalogue anime titles, primarily] in is 4:3 in the first place, and in many cases it was transferred to and even edited on composite video [1" C-type or sometimes D-2], and no other master exists. Additionally, this is a category of DVDs which [when available at all -- many titles remain unreleased] is typically overcompressed and suffers from poor mastering choices, not least because the MPEG encoding system is not intended for this type of film. My viewing experience has, however, been considerably wider than just this narrow area of specialisation -- I merely feel the need to confine my almost illimitable concupiscence within some bounds which will help stop me ruining myself.
Anyway, the individual's experience will vary. As I say, I certainly notice the NTSC artefacts; only very rarely, though, do I find them annoying. It is much more frequent that I am disturbed by MPEG artefacts, and in some cases they literally make my skin crawl [my most common complaint has got to be the moire pattern which lossy DCT imposes on any flat-colour surface, and these washes are prevalent in anime far beyond their occurence in normal films -- at high compression ratios this can get very strong indeed].

Anyway, I do think it's fair to say that DVD's advantage over LaserDisc is its form factor, since most of the people who bought into DVD were moving up from VHS. They could have had the advantages of durability, random access, multiple audio programmes with surround sound, and improved video quality any time in the previous twenty years, but the large size of LD [and, of course, the accompanying higher costs -- not so much of pressing but of handling, storage, and so forth, which also made them less attractive to retail and rental outlets] deterred them.

 

[greg_t]

Steve,

The LD-S9 uses a high resolution 3D motion adaptive comb filter that the 3D comb filters in most display devices can't touch. In fact, it's still used in the Mitsubishi Diamond and Pioneer Elite HDTV's. In my opinion you should use the S9's S-video output and take advantage of it's comb filter. Most displays have 3D filters that you can't adjust at all. These filters are often low cost and are there to provide Y/C separation for many possible sources. The one in your S9 was customized for use with laserdisc. I can't verify this, but was told at one point that it cost $500 to implement it in the Pioneer Elite HDTV's.

The "DSP" modes as you call them are the Y/C seperation options for the comb filter. Adjusting these parameters changes the functioning of the comb filter to suite different material. For example, what may be a good setting for a movie like Star Wars may not provide the best results with say a laserdisc of scenary or something with mostly static images. The beauty of this comb filter is how adjustable it is to suite different types of program material.

I myself don't have an LD-S9, but have the HLD-X9, which is the next model up, but both share the same comb filter but I believe the options are a little different. I'm not sure if the S9 has the HR mode. Anyway, here is the settings for the X9's comb filter and what they do, and most of this should be applicable to your S9.

The X9 has three seperate Y/C seperation algorithms called Standard (for standard material), Sports (for fast moving or action type material), and Art (slow material with mostly static images). Changing between these options changes the functioning of the filter to suite the material your watching. Once an algorithm is selected, you get to modify it's parameters. The parameters are Y/C, 3D Y/C processing, and 3D Noise reduction for the Y and C signals.

For the Y/C option, choose the option that best suites the material being viewed. The option are Normal, C-Wide (fast moving material), and HR (high resolution, gives the most picture detail and sharpens the image but should be used with static or slow moving material has it sets the 3D processing level to full 3D and cannot be lowered).

The next option is 3D Y/C processing- this controls the level of 3D processing and on the X9 is adjustable on an eight step range. 0 is 2D processing only with no 3D processing and 8 is full 3D processing. As you move up from 0 to 8 you add in more 3D processing.

3D noise reduction is just that and can be set on an 8 set scale also and can be adjusted on both the Y and C signal seperatly.

The S9 may not have all of these options, but most of it should be applicable. Hope this helps some.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

So do Laserdiscs work like records, only read by a laser instead of a needle?

 

[Damin J Toell]

Just as much as DVDs and CDs work like phonograph records, too. All of them pick up and interpret the physical characteristics of a disc. On a phonograph record, the physical structure (the grooves) contains the waveform of the sound. On laserdiscs, the physical structure (the pits and lands) provide an FM waveform (and, eventually, PCM data). On a CD or DVD, the physical structue provides 1s and 0s that can be interpreted as computer-usable data (or, in the case of Redbook audio CDs, just PCM data).

DJ

 

[Jeffrey Nelson]

Hey, don't forget the good old RCA Selectavision CED VideoDiscs, which WERE read with a needle!

We got one of those players in 1981 for $199, when VCRs were still near a grand. A great deal at the time, and the picture was a bit sharper than VHS, or at least it seemed to be after we got a VCR and I was able to compare.

 

[Nils Luehrmann]

[c]

Quadraphonia... [/c]

 

[Jeffrey Nelson]

The Rockville Road disc pressing plant in Indianapolis:



The player we had, the RCA SGT075:



We got it for $199.99, at a time when VCRs were still nearly a grand. Seemed like a steal to us. Oh, the memories...

This site is a total nostalgia trip:

CED Magic

 

[Marko Berg]

Like the LaserDisc format that was later "updated" to include digital audio capabilities even though the video remained analogue, the VHS format (in Europe at least) was similarly updated.

In the late 1980s, after TVs with digital NICAM stereo sound started appearing, VHS decks were updated with that sound format too. The video was still quite the horrible mess VHS carries, but the sound got a lot better and at its best (on prerecorded commercially released tapes) was about on par with CD quality.

 

[MikeEckman]

Wow, this thread is just filling up with great info.

I, too, have a CED player and around 33 movies. The picture and audio isnt very good, but I just think the nostalgia of the player and seeing it suck in and spit out the caddies is cool!

 

[Jay Mitchosky]

There is also a difference between the two primary laserdisc formats: CLV (constant linear velocity) and CAV (constant angular velocity). If I recall CLV is generally regarded as having slightly better picture quality, with the trade-off being less capacity per side (I think 30 minutes vs. 60 minutes with CAV) and subsequently more layer changes (or manual flips depending on your player) and disc replacements. The first time I played the Jurassic Park DTS disc (which I'm sure is CLV but don't quote me) I couldn't believe how good it looked.

Another thing I've noticed about LD vs. DVD picture quality differences is that extensive edge enhancement (when used) is not as distracting. True Lies is a great example. The existing Fox DVD uses essentially the same transfer (anxiously awaiting a remastered SE!!!) but is a complete mess with the EE, yet looks quite good on the DTS LD. I've found the same with other titles as well.

The LD renaissance a few years ago was one of my most memorable experiences in home theater.

 

[greg_t]

Actually it's 60 minutes per side with CLV, and 30 with CAV. I think sometimes that CAV has a smoother quality to it, but the only 30 minutes per side makes CLV better for me.

And yes, the True Lies DTS ld does look fantastic. You should see it via an HLD-X9 through a Iscan Ultra deinterlacer.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

That was precisely the same master on both DVD and LD...with no "additional" EE applied to the DVD.

But there is a reason that the laseerdisc doesn't reveal as much ringing...it's because of the HF-roll-off on laser that DVD doesn't have. Laserdisc tends to "roll off" as you reach the outer-limit of it's horizontal resolution...where as DVD is linear up to its limit of 720 horizontal pixels (@540 "lines" of horizontal detail).

That's one reason the studios got used to EE to begin with...it was put there to "sharpen up" the relatively blurry/soft picture of VHS and even laserdisc...and it worked "ok" on those formats because the HF roll-off compenstated.

DVD shows that masters exactly as they are!

 

[Nils Luehrmann]

*EDIT (David beat me to it while I was typing a similar response)

I'll only add that the effect is also true for those watching DVDs on CRT displays, especially non-EM focus tubes smaller than 7" and direct view CRTs - which is still what the majority of consumers use at home and thus one of the reasons why studios have continued to use varying degrees of EE. Fortunately with most new transfers the use of EE has gone way down over the last three years as the Studios prepare for HD home video.

 

[Gary Seven]

You have that reversed. It is CAV that has a smaller capacity, better picture.

Coincidently, I played both Thunderball on DVD and the DD5.1 LD box set that I have. The transfer is so good on the LD it truly rivals the DVD transfer. And the sound... blew the DVD out of the water. LDs are not to be so quickly dismissed.

 

[alan halvorson]

Although it is often quoted that there are two LD formats, CAV and CLV, the CLV format isn't actually a format at all but a name that has come into common usage to describe several similar LD formats. In fact, it isn't even "Constant Linear Velocity". From The Laser Disc FAQ

 

[Mattias_ka]

Seriously, I hope you understand that the biggest difference in picture quality between the 1997 laserdisc and the much newer DVD is; Mastering.
I would say that a NEW laserdisc, made from a new master, in 16:9, pressed in Japan and showed tru a X0 or X9 to a good scaler will be so close a DVD that most will not see the difference.

I use mainly a HLD-X0 that I went tru a Crystalio video processor and to a Marquee 9500LC. The picture was AWSOME! One should keep in mind that most LD transfer are loooong way fron today's supirior HD-transfers. So the picture from these old transfers are really an eye-opener!

 

[DaViD Boulet]

That's quite true most of the time, and with the Toy Story example it fits (that DVD didn't arrive until much later). but with the Fifth Element, my comparison was of the laserdisc and DVD which were derived from the same transfer/master (that master being downconverted by Sony to 4x3 lbx for laserdisc and left 16x9 for DVD). The previous version of Mary Poppins was also a good example...same master for DVD and LD (the one released after the archive edition). The DVD of the Abyss is also a direct-port from the same source used for the LD. It's about as apples-apples as you can get trying to compare DVD to LD keeping all other things equal.

But yes, you're absolutely right that most LDs were never mastered to the potential of the medium...and that potential can come much closer to DVD on good playback equipment that one might think (the same could also be said of CD versus SACD and DVD-A)

 

[Mattias_ka]

DaViD Boulet then we agree on something

 

[Kain_C]

Wow, awesome thread! Props to all of the experts on this thread and thanks for the info!

My friend had an LD player and I was seriously considering it, but the prices and the retail availability of software and hardware in this area kept me away.

Plus I had heard about a new video format and decided to wait, which was a good decision in hindsight.

 

[ChristopherDAC]

Now, I would like to see the results of an NTSC LD deliberately mastered for picture quality, omitting the analog audio tracks which restrict the video signal. I have some CDV-singles and VSDs with digital audio only, but they were not really made with high image quality as their primary objective [not to say that they are not quite good], and their light weight loses some of the "flywheel effect" which helps to stabilise LD playback.
It would also be amusing to make CAV discs which let the bandwidth increase along with the linear speed. Unfortunately, barring a fanatical hobbyist with the ability to maintain a clean room, it's not going to happen.