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DVD Forum will select HD-DVD laser and spec in March...act NOW! (1 Viewer)

JosephMoore

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Oct 10, 2002
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112
To some on these manufacturing groups 16x9 enhancement for regular DVDs, when the specs. were being laid out, was a "fringe" thing... but it's happening.
The big difference is that the HDTV spec already outlined 16:9 displays. There was a built-in audience for 16:9 material. There is no standard, nor will there be for the foreseeable future, for anything wider. Don't bother mentioning FP systems (not to mention the subfaction of those that would be willing to use an anamorphic lens) they are such a small percentage of display sales to be inconsequential.
 

DaViD Boulet

Senior HTF Member
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Feb 24, 1999
Messages
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Oh PLEEEASE people. Let's give the obvious a break. Lucas wouldn't change his mind if 10,000 fans camped out in the cold and held a hunger strike in front of his ranch while burning themselves with hot coals.
And Dave,
Only one of my examples had anything to do with an internet petition...(willy wonka). The rest had EVERYTHING to do with people simply asking...and asking the right person at the right time. Guess what...the internet hasn't changed that one bit.
Regarding Bob Stuart's influence, I addressed that quite well in my post which your comments seemed to ignore. Having spoken with him personally about his own motivations, I already explained exactly how that relates to the common consumer.
Oh...and yes...you're right that there still are some Disney DVD's that aren't 16x9. I'm as upset about that as anybody (of course, I've also done everything I can as a consumer to let them know how I feel about it). However, my point was that those three studios at one time refused to use the 16x9 feature PERIOD. They were staunchly against it.
Now Fox has a policy of making all new DVD titles available in OAR and 16x9 whenever 1.66:1 or wider. Criterion also now makes every effort to use 16x9 and Disney uses 16x9 as a rule for all new titles released 1.66:1 or wider as well.
How did that come to pass? I told you in my post.
If you don't like the EE that you're seeing in the 16x9 transfers mentioned above, then do something about and let them know. I know I am. That's clearly another issue that needs to be addressed in general regarding the common mastering practices of all the major studios but what relevence does it have to our discussion?
Oh...and one last thing. Regarding your brilliant ascertion that most of these changes were brought about during DVD's infancy or development (except Fox's and Criterion's committment to 16x9...that's a relative newbie to the game and it took some harder work)...Bingo! Let's see...HD-DVD under development about to be launched in the next few years...seems pretty applicable to me.
yet said:
It's abosutely NOT inconsequential. Yes, *now* FP sales are a small part of the percentage. However, as HD gains penetration and FP technology gets better and cheaper, FP markets will grow substantially. It's a new business because before DVD came along there really wasn't anything to project that looked good enough to fill a 100" screen (laserdisc did NOT acomplish this goal) and CRT-based systems were costly as all heck...you needed $30,000 to get a scaler and projector that produced a watchable image, IMO. Now we've got some sub $10,000 projectors that produce some pretty spectacular plug-and-play results.
Front projection is on its way to becoming the new HT standard over the next 5-10 years. Wait, watch and see. Those who disagree should stop and re-read some posts from 5 years back as the majority here thought that 4x3 NTSC TVs were good-enough for hi-end HT and that only the "fringe" handful would ever want a 16x9 HD set.
Besides, where HD matters most is on a big screen and that's the market that will help drive the HD-DVD format to success. Sure...right now 20x9 display requires an extra lens. Why would you think that will always be the case? A digital array can be made in any shape easily and FP optics would be affordable to produce that incorporate 20x9 as an option once the market gains a larger size. The fact that even now, before there's software that can provide the resolution of 20x9 films, FP manufactures are already working hard at coming up with 20x9 solutions is an indicator of just how much this feature has to add and how commonplace among hi-end HT systems it stands to become.
If some of you seem to be so against people doing things that actually affecting your movie software for the better why are you here at HTF???
 

David Susilo

Screenwriter
Joined
May 8, 1999
Messages
1,197
"Disney uses 16x9 as a rule for ALL new titles released 1.66:1 or wider as well."

hmmm, obviously "Country Bears" is not a 'new' Disney title 'released 1.66:1 or wider' then. Is it Front Row Entertainment? is Full-Frame at the theaters? How about "Snow Dogs"? that's Front Row Entertainment too? and never originally "released 1.66:1 or wider" in theaters?

Do you need more examples?

well, it's very difficult to shed some reality to those of you who lives in the land of dreams. When they finally released HD-DVD, just contact me with undisputable proof that this petition plays any part in the developers' decision finalizing process.
 

Dan Hitchman

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 11, 1999
Messages
2,712
JosephMoore,

How do you know that more people wouldn't start using lenses and a front projector?

Look over at AVS Forum. Just the number of digital front projector users are growing by leaps and bounds. Why not when 16x9 digital projectors are starting to fall into the under-$3,000 range?

All you need then are manufacturers willing to produce the right anamorphic lens or prism setup to make it work (besides ISCO).

However, if the super-wide HD movie discs (2:1 and above) were so mastered and encoded from the start (with quality in-player downconversion for those without the technology yet), then the migration to a 2.35:1 front projection set up would be that much easier.

Dan
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2001
Messages
22
I have never seen such complacent mediocrities from people who consider themselves HT enthusiast. When DVD was developed there were very few 1.78 (I owned a Pioneer 1.78 RPTV at the time) displays available in the US market. If 2.35 is added to the standard then we may see the "chicken and egg" effect and manufactures could produce 2.35 displays. If not what is the loss? Current DVD offers an on the fly P&S system that has not been used but if causes no problems by being included in the standard.

I just can not except an HD-DVD with red laser technology at less than 10Mbps and 384Kbps DD audio.

Give me more than I need or can currently use in HD-DVD and I will figure out how to use it in the UNCERTAIN future.
 

JosephMoore

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Messages
112
1) Everybody, let's try to keep this discussion polite.

2) David, I have to respectfully dissagree with you on FP. I'd never give mine up, but even the easiest to use digital pj is a tempormental toy that requires considerations that the average consumer will never, ever put up with. Continuing advances in flat panel displays will ensure that FP is a marginal business for freaks and geeks, but every schmoe has heard of Plasma and thinks it's cool. Try to explain to your grandma how to change a projector bulb after it explodes! ;-)

And yes, the pennies per player it would cost to have a decoder capable of "letterboxing" an anamorphic "scope" HD-DVD to 16:9 would keep the industry from doing it. They watch pennies.
 

Jay Sylvester

Supporting Actor
Joined
Jan 27, 2002
Messages
521
I'm consistently amazed and disappointed by the lack of vision exhibited by some of the "enthusiasts" on this board.

Current projection technology relies on panels with fixed resolution, but CRTs are capable of multiple resolutions and aspect ratios. GLV technology under development by Sony promises all the benefits of large-screen digital projection display with the flexible aspect ratios and lower black levels of CRT projectors. No anamorphic lens required. Providing the capability of 20:9 encoding within the HD-DVD spec is not an outlandish idea and should be encouraged.

Front projection is the future of home theater. You can go out and get a stunning XGA DLP projector like the NEC HT1000 for ~$4000 that will replicate cinema in the home environment far more accurately than any RPTV ever could. A year ago, similar projector performance would have cost over twice as much. Digital projectors are becoming smaller, cheaper, and better looking with every generation. Models with native 1920x1080 panels aren't here yet, but the panels are. The 1080p projectors will be here this year. Toshiba already has an RPTV with a 1080p LCOS panel.

1080p display devices are coming. HD-DVD should be able to accommodate these devices.

well, it's very difficult to shed some reality to those of you who lives in the land of dreams. When they finally released HD-DVD, just contact me with undisputable proof that this petition plays any part in the developers' decision finalizing process.
If you don't believe in its effectiveness, why don't you just stay out of the topic instead of crapping all over those of us who give a damn? Nothing more lame than a defeatist attitude when you're already fighting an uphill battle.
 

JosephMoore

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Messages
112
Dan,
I spend a lot of time on the AVS forum, and not a one of us on there are anywhere near being a J6P. To get an ideas of how marginal FP is ... with even the relative success of DLP, TI is greatly dissappointed in the numbers and is losing their shirt on it. Anamorphic lens are "expensive" and always will be (relatively speaking.)

PJ's are not friendly or convenient. they will never have a high WAF. Their very nature ensures that will never change. Flat panels will eventually give 95% of the benefits without the hassles.

William,
It's been explained ad naseum why 16:9 anamorphic made sense but going wider now does not.

I just can not except an HD-DVD with red laser technology at less than 10Mbps and 384Kbps DD audio.
As someone who compresses video all day long, I can tell you that modern codecs (MPEG-2 is ancient) would blow your socks off with 10 Mbs to play with. You can't just say that those arbitrary numbers won't work.
 

DaViD Boulet

Senior HTF Member
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Feb 24, 1999
Messages
8,826
David, as I said when Disney releases a *DVD* that is 1.66:1 or wider of a new film...the rule it that it is 16x9. This IN ITESELF is a huge turn-around from their staunch position against 16x9 encoding when they first entered the DVD format. Yes, there are may P/S-only atrocities that we both bemoan...but that doesn't change the fact that Disney's shift from 4x3-lbxed ONLY to 16x9 when a DVD is 1.66:1 or wider is profound, significant, and germane to this discussion as it was all in response to CUSTOMER INPUT.
If you simply feel that a peition doesn't hold enough weight to have influence then kindly offer to do (or at least suggest) something that does ;)
It's been explained ad naseum why 16:9 anamorphic made sense but going wider now does not.
And 7 years from now when someone thinking of buying their first HDTV sees the new $5,000 plug-and-play Sony GLV projector at Best Buy producing a spectacular 2.35:1 image on a white wall with no added lens attachment or complex process...all of the limits of CRT vacuum-tubes and TV-boxes that have *everything* to do with why we have the limits a 16x9 aspect ratio will be moot. Front Projection has no such confines of aspect ratio and your local Digital Cinema Projection will be using it to boost resolution (as they aready are). Think outside the box...literally. The picture looks a lot better from out here :)
(general rant to no one individual)
You didn't believe us when we told you 16x9 was the future when you had your new NTSC 4x3 set hooked up to your first DVD player. Now that you're watching (or saving for) your 16x9 HD set, you don't believe us that Front Projection is the future.
Wait and see!
(rant off)
-dave
 

JosephMoore

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Messages
112
There may very well one day be displays with arbitrary aspect ratios, but that's moot. Industry thrives on standards.
- At the time (199x) that the DVD Forum was creating the original DVD spec there were two standard display ratios for home video displays: 4:3 and 16:9.
- At the time (now) that the DVD Forum is creating the HD-DVD spec there are two standard display ratio's: 4:3 and 16:9.
The only things that have changed since is the ratio of 4:3 to 16:9 sets (just a small shift) and the enormous popularity of the original spec. The DVD-Forum's task is not to define new display standards.
 

DaViD Boulet

Senior HTF Member
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Feb 24, 1999
Messages
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There may very well one day be displays with arbitrary aspect ratios, but that's moot. Industry thrives on standards.
20x9 sounds like a standard to me :) Thrive away studios!
(in the case of downconversion, standards are essential so that algorithms can be designed to work effectively given a predicatble set of integer-related ratios to convert.)
I agree that it's not the DVD forums job to define new display standards. However, given that 20x9 images will be used in Digital-cinema and that 20x9 is already being used for 2.35:1 display in cutting-edge home-theater projection designs...it's not as radical as it may at first sound. In other words, 20x9 encoding will have many real-world applications in the professional arena and private arena...why shouldn't HD-DVD allow this resolution? Even MPEG-2 has a 20x9 provision built-in that was not utilized on SD-DVD.
 

David Susilo

Screenwriter
Joined
May 8, 1999
Messages
1,197
David, I don't know whether it's possible, but it will be more effective to directly approach one (or more) of these decision makers rather than the petition approach.

Should this is the last resort, I may suggest for you (and others) to bring other HT forums/websites to link this petition to their sites so much more people will see (and sign), or at least discuss, the issue stated in the petition.

BTW, I'm NOT against better spec, I'm NOT against the petition, I'm just questioning the effectiveness.

And for the guy who wrote that I'm just crapping the thread... thank you very much for such kind and eloquent recognition.
 

Adam Lenhardt

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I'm sure that studios expect that *eventually* (10 years) HD-DVD will become a mainstream product similar to what's happened with DVD. However, for the first few years it will take to establish the format it will be people like yours truly who make it happen. And as long as we're going to have a format that has the chance to hang around for the next 10 years...what's the problem with wanting it to look and sound it's best on the technology that will be in our HT rooms during that time-frame???
Once again, I must disagree. DVD was the heir to Laserdisc, not VHS. It was created as a niche product and became a mainstream one. Everyone's going to want (and expect) much quicker penetration this time around. 10 years is a rediculously long time frame. HD-DVD and SD-DVD are too similiar to co-exist for a long time. If HD-DVD doesn't conquer, it will fail.
 

Todd Hochard

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Jan 24, 1999
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If some of you seem to be so against people doing things that actually affecting your movie software for the better why are you here at HTF???
This is what it's come to, I guess.:rolleyes:I sha'nt be represented by that attitude.
Good luck on your quest.
Todd
 

DaViD Boulet

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Feb 24, 1999
Messages
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Hey Folks,

I'm not trying to argue whether or not an on-line petition is the best way to accomplish a change...I'm simply trying to suggest that doing *something* is better than *nothing*.

If anyone here has a great idea of a more effective means to accomplish the goal of the best HD-DVD format that could be obtained...let's hear it. In any case, it certainly can't *hurt* to print out the petition with it's signatures and send it around. To me, one solution would be to find a party that would share those concerns (stated in the petition) who could then represent them to the forum. What's Joel Silver doing these days???

-dave
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2001
Messages
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...I'm simply trying to suggest that doing *something* is better than *nothing*....
There are some shot sighted pessimist posting. I agree that the petition will probably have little impact at best and may even have none. But at least DaVID is doing something positive for a higher quality HD-DVD. I don't want a below HDTV quality quick fix Joe Six HD-DVD. More features and higher quality are better even if they are all never completely utilized.

Keep up the fight DaVID.
 

RobertR

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Dec 19, 1998
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DVD was the heir to Laserdisc, not VHS. It was created as a niche product
That's not correct. The creaters of DVD most certainly did NOT envision it as simply being the heir to the laserdisc niche (they would never have bothered to make it if that was the case). They had their sights set much, MUCH higher (ie mass market acceptance and a direct challenge to VHS) all along. Even laserdisc itself was never intended to be a niche product. Its creators were hoping for the kind of mass acceptance that VHS achieved, but it never got to that level. The difference is that DVD succeeded in its goal.
 

Adam Lenhardt

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Let me restate my intent on that. Prior to DVD, all the multimedia formats had taken atleast a decade to reach mass market penetration. Now that DVD has done it in 3 to 4 years, that's the new expectation.
 

Dan Hitchman

Senior HTF Member
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Jun 11, 1999
Messages
2,712
Then what the hell is the DVD-Forum for?
Maybe the BlueRay group will have greater foresight and vision...
Dan
P.S. I can hope, can't I? :D
 

Scott L

Senior HTF Member
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Feb 29, 2000
Messages
4,457
I just signed the petition, is it possible to make this a sticky for this forum until March?
 

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