DVD Forum will select HD-DVD laser and spec in March...act NOW! (1 Viewer)

[JosephMoore]

Oh my, no. If manufacturers don't go their own ways and create a format war then it will be some time before all of the details of a standard can be hammered out. Only then can final equipment be manufactured, software mastered and duplicated and consumer devices sold.

Also, the only parties with incentive to rush out a new format are hardware manufacturers (cause their margines on players right now is so low.) Everyone else in the foodchain wants to milk SD DVD's for awhile longer.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Those of you who seem to think that wanting audio that sounds better than 384 kbps Dolby Digital or that the idea that in five years when you have a 1080P digital display it might be nice to have your HD-DVD movies look their best on it is unreasonable....

I don't think anyone's saying that. Hell, current DVD has better than 384kb Dolby audio. We're just saying that creating a support base for a non-existant audio format is extremely unlikely. And everyone would LIKE what you have on your list, but not everyone thinks it's a realistic possibility. And I doubt everyone's going to have 1080P digital displays in five years, but hey, I'm no fortune teller..

 

[Jeff Kohn]

The biggest problem with MLP audio is that it means consumers will have to throw out their receivers to buy new ones, or at least buy more expensive HD-DVD players with built in decoders. So at best I think you'll see MLP as on option, with DD or DTS as the standard required track. And frankly, I'd be pretty happy with full-bitrate DTS-ES descrete for the foreseeable future.

As for 1080p, that's not entirely unreasonable but given the way things turned out with the original DVD spec I think the most likely outcome will be 1080i with 3:2 pulldown so that progressive 1080p can be recreated by the player. I doubt we'll see the filtering get pushed to the player, because it would make players more expensive.

And I really don't think that 2.35 anamorphic will be supported as a format. 16:9 displays are here to stay. While it may be possible to buy a 2.35 screen, you can't buy a 2.35 projector; you have to add an anamorphic lense, and the number of people who are willing to go to such a setup is pretty small. It's not like we're going to be seeing 2.35 RPTV's anytime soon.

Let's face it, we'd all like the new format to be the ultimate in super-high-res video and audio, but in the real world there are other considerations that can't be ignored. There will be some compromises made, and frankly I'd rather have a good, well-thought-out compromise than nothing at all.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Let's face it, we'd all like the new format to be the ultimate in super-high-res video and audio, but in the real world there are other considerations that can't be ignored. There will be some compromises made, and frankly I'd rather have a good, well-thought-out compromise than nothing at all.

Exactly. If we're choosing between all or nothing and a reasonable compromise which still provides a significant improvement over current DVD, I'll take the reasonable compromise. That said, I think everyone wants the format to be the best it could possibly be.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

I'm pretty sure DTS can downconvert. My 4-year-old Onkyo receiver will output DTS as stereo if you plug headphone jacks into it.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I'm pretty sure DTS can downconvert. My 4-year-old Onkyo receiver will output DTS as stereo if you plug headphone jacks into it.

What if you don't have a reciever at all? What if you're just plugging the audio directly into your TV with composite imputs. My HT system worked this way for a while. When I tried to play the DTS tracks, all I got is a low crackling hum. When I tried the Dolby 5.1, the sound game out as clear as you could expect from TV speakers.

 

[Dan Hitchman]

So, we now want to dumb down the format? COME ON! If the space is there to do 1080p and better than DTS audio, I say DO IT!

21x9 enhancement is not that hard to implement and 16x9 digital projector costs are coming way down.

Don't skimp if you want my money!

Dan

 

[Craig Robertson]

1571

 

[DaViD Boulet]

DTS compatibility example:
The reason your DVD player can't output the DTS track via analog 2-channel output is because...
DTS was added to the DVD spec *after* the DVD format had been finalized and released.
It was added onto DVD after DVD had been on the market for about a year. First-generation DVD players couldn't even output DTS at all...and because it wasn't part of the required spec in DVD players...no DVD player was required to have a DTS decoder built-in for d/a conversion (like it was with DD decoding).
MLP audio without a receiver???
I'm not aware of very many receivers that have MLP decoding yet that doesn't seem to stop DVD-Audio players from making music with MLP-encoded discs.
If MLP was part of the HD-DVD spec from the start, just as with DVD-Audio players, all HD-DVD players would be designed to output 2-channel stereo analog output from MLP-encoded mulit-channels tracks. If DTS was written into the spec requiring the same sort of attention, this would be true for it as well.

We're just saying that creating a support base for a non-existant audio format is extremely unlikely.

DVD Audio is the non-existant audio format you're talking about.
What's the point about worrying if the industry *wants* to do 1080P, MLP, or 20x9 encoding of 2.35:1 films? The answer is obviously NO. That's not the question being asked. Why do you think we have a petition...to remind those in a position of power of what they are already planning to do?
Nope.
It's to try to make them more aware of the interests of the videophile. At least those of us who have some "vision".
It's really disheartening to hear members of this forum not "get" the importance or value of things like 1080P or 20x9 encoding. Yes, right now displaying an image at this level is complex on something that only the very dedictated-tweaking HT nut is doing. However, in 5-10 years time, I'll bet your bottom dollar that there will be affordable digital projectors with 1920x1080 resolution that will be able to expand images for a 2.35:1 screen. We're already starting to see projector manufacturers head in this direction (at the recent CES convention Runco displayed a new projector that unsqeezed an image onto a 2.35:1 screen using a standard 1280x720 HD projector).
Give it time folks. These things seem out-of-reach today, but they won't be tomorrow. And who is HD for...the walmart shopper? Nope...it's for you and me...the HT enthusiast who wants the best image that his/her money can buy.
BTW, adding down-filtering as a player feature would not add any prohibitive cost to an HD-DVD player. I can buy a DVD player for $75 bucks that has 16x9 - 4x3lbx downconversion that is virtually artifact-free. And *that* is a MUCH MORE complex task than just filtering out a bit of vertical sharpness (does your TV or DVD player have a sharpness control? Did that make it too expensive to afford?) Once an algorithm is developed, it costs no more to zap it onto an eprom chip than leaving it off.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Give it time folks. These things seem out-of-reach today, but they won't be tomorrow. And who is HD for...the walmart shopper? Nope...it's for you and me...the HT enthusiast who wants the best image that his/her money can buy.

Says you, not the people involved in the creation of the format. I have a feeling that D-VHS was the niche format... HD-DVD is going to have to penetrate the mainstream market to be considered a success. The market is completely different than that of the laserdisc days.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Quote:

D-VHS isn't a "niche" product. It's a temporary product. If HD-DVD is released in a form that delivers the same level of picture and sound quality D-VHS will drop dead as the entire consumer base that supported it instantly shifts over to HD-DVD. Those supporting D-VHS know this and have their own reasons for getting into game with this stop-gate product.
I'm sure that studios expect that *eventually* (10 years) HD-DVD will become a mainstream product similar to what's happened with DVD. However, for the first few years it will take to establish the format it will be people like yours truly who make it happen. And as long as we're going to have a format that has the chance to hang around for the next 10 years...what's the problem with wanting it to look and sound it's best on the technology that will be in our HT rooms during that time-frame???

 

[JosephMoore]

I'm sure that studios expect that *eventually* (10 years) HD-DVD will become a mainstream product similar to what's happened with DVD.

Because of what happened with DVD they want a mainstream successor sooner rather than later. The equipment manufacturers have no profit margin right now, which makes a format war dangerously close to reality. A standard of reasonable compromises is despeately needed sooner rather than later or HD-DVD is going to splinter ala VHS and Beta or SCCD and DVD-A.

 

[David Susilo]

guys, call me if this petition will actually be used as part of the format descision makers' decision making process.

The days of internet petition means anything is long over.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

The peition was also printed in a past issue of Widescreen Review which so that should help add some weight to the signatures. We're doing what we can. Sorry if the rest of you don't care!
dave
p.s. here's a few examples of some things that happend *just* because someone like you or me cared enough to ask:

• 24/96 PCM on DVD-video per Bob Stuart of Meridian's request. Ok so he's not exactly a nobody...still...it's because he CARED and ASKED that it happened. He cared partly because OTHER people (audiophiles) cared who talked to him. At least that's the way he described it to me when I spoke to him at the Stereophile convention on '96 when the DVD format was still in the final stages of development.
• First T2 DVD was released 16x9 RSDL (I started an email-chain to Live Ent. and they changed their 4x3 lbxed/flipper plans because of about 20 emails that consumers JUST LIKE US sent them).
• Image Dances With Wolves disc in 16x9 (I had a phone call with the head-of-DVD-production because they had announced the release date for a 4x3 lbxed version using the NTSC laserdisc master. He thanked me for my thoughts and told me he had heard a new 16x9 master was being prepared in Europe that they might be able to use if they waited but that they weren't going to do this as it would delay the release date of the DVD. I kindly suggested that the disc would sell better and better-serve his consumers if they delayed the release and utilized the new 16x9 master. Can you guess what happened? You even got DTS out of that deal.
• Willy Wonka released in widescreen even*after* the glory days when on-line petitions "counted".
• If you like having 16x9 Fox, Buena Vista, or Criterion DVD transfers and you never contacted any of these studios asking for it, please say "thank-you" to me and others who did it for you so you can enjoy those discs on your 16x9 compatible displays (or future display).

Just a few success stories. There are more.
Those of you who want to be part of future success stories that benefit the rest of your HT brethern heed my call.
Those of you who don't care go and be happy with the crappy product that the studios and manufactures are content to give you and rely on the rest of us to do the work to try to make it better.

 

[JosephMoore]

David,
Just wanted to say that even though I seem to be marginalizing your ideas, I do appreciate your efforts. Experience may have brazened me a bit, but you are right in the sense that setting the "expectation bar" as high as possible increases the likelyhood that the eventual compromise will be a little better.

Also, everyone, remember that one actual snail-mailed letter is worth 1,000 emails or 10,000 petition signatures.

 

[Todd Hochard]

Sorry if the rest of you don't care!

The continuing condescension is why I won't sign, even if I do agree with the petition.

Todd

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Hey Joseph,

Also, everyone, remember that one actual snail-mailed letter is worth 1,000 emails or 10,000 petition signatures.

Point taken. I'm doing some digging to see if I can find some good address to share among the devoted...

 

[David Susilo]

• 24/96 PCM on DVD-video (per Bob Stuart of Meridian's request)
  --- He is a somebody, also during the infancy of the DVD format.
  First T2 disc was released 16x9 RSDL (I started an email-chain to Live Ent. and
  they changed their 4x3 lbxed/flipper plans because of about 20 emails that
  consumers JUST LIKE US sent them).
  --- That's also during the infancy of the DVD format. Remember? during the time when internet petition worked?
• Image Dances With Wolves disc in 16x9 (I had a phone call with the
  head-of-DVD-production because they had announced the release date for a 4x3
  lbxed version using the NTSC laserdisc master. He thanked me for my thoughts
  and told me he had heard a new 16x9 master was being prepared in Europe that
  they might be able to use if they waited. I kindly suggested that the disc
  would sell better and better-serve his consumers if they delayed the release
  and utilized the new master. Can you guess what happened? You even got DTS out
  of that deal.
  --- That's also during the infancy of the DVD format. Remember? during the time when internet petition worked?
• Willy Wonka released in widescreen even*after* the glory days when on-line
  petitions "counted".
  --- I doubt that our petition number will even HALF of Willy Wonka. Besides, we're talking about the creation of a format here, not merely a relatively cheap creation of another video master.
• If you like having 16x9 Fox, Buena Vista, or Criterion DVD transfers and you
  never contacted any of these studios asking for it, please say "thank-you" to
  me and others who did it for you so you can enjoy those discs on your 16x9
  compatible displays (or future display).
  --- I don't see complete 16:9 enhanced, no edge enhancement across their entire titles. Do you? Please let me know where I can find The Muppet's Treasure Island, Titanic, amongst others, in 16:9 enhanced. There was a petition on the Muppet's Treasure Island. Does it yield any result? If it does... again, let me know.

 

[David Susilo]

oh... I forgot... how about those Star Wars OST petitions? do they work?

face it, nearly all of them don't work, ESPECIALLY nowadays.

 

[Dan Hitchman]

How is 21x9 encoding or multichannel PCM considered "fringe?" How is getting better audio and video on movie discs a wild idea?

They do something similar to that for many DLP theatrical showings (granted, they are encoding super-wide ratio movies for 4x3 digital panels and regular scope lenses, but the technology used is about the same).

To some on these manufacturing groups 16x9 enhancement for regular DVDs, when the specs. were being laid out, was a "fringe" thing... but it's happening.

Dan