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DVD audio/SACD Subwoofer channel lower volume (1 Viewer)

Kevin C Brown

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The Pioneer 588 *does* do BM correctly. The problem is that since there's no way of adjusting levels independently of the pre/pro or receiver, I believe it's quite useless as an SACD/DVD-A player.

*Some* receivers and pre/pros allow a separate adjustment for the sub. But as far as I know, none of them allow for independent levels adjustment between the 5.1 analog inputs and anything that comes into the player in a digital format, or is converted to digital for processing. They all assume that you have that capability in the player.
 

Brian L

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Actually, my old school Marantz SR96 has independent levels for the 5.1 versus anything decoded internally; that's how I got around the sub/LFE level issue when I first got the 45a back in late '02.

Buy my newer NAD 762 does not have that feature; its trims are global, as are most other contemporary AVR's I would wager.

On a related subject, a positive feature of the NAD is that it has 5 separate memories that retain all set-up features. So, one could have a preset just for a 5.1 analog source which had different trims than say for DD and DTS sources brought in digitally.

Fortunately, the Denon 3910 mated to the NAD does not seem to exhibit level discrepancies, even without having to engage the on-board switchable sub channel boost.

Just to regurgitate some of what we already know:D

The things that players DO get wrong when they get BM wrong include, but are not limited to:

1. Low sub/LFE channel level
2. Do not redirect the .1 to the main channels when set to large/no sub.
3. Not allowing all possible combos of large/small mains.
4. Boneheaded crossover settings (200 Hertz DVD-A for Pio 563!)
5. No BM at all for some formats vs. others
6. No channel trims (not really a BM thing, but having trims helps with #1)

And I am down with the ICBM. Have had one almost as long as I have had the 45a. But in the HT rig, the 3910 renders it superfluous. Now the ICBM is doing 2CH duty in another room.

I would agree that there does not seem to be any cheap (~$200) player that gets BM right or even close. But as is always the case with all of the uni-player threads, as soon as you tell someone that they have to spend another >$200 to fix their $129 player, they say screw it, I will live with what I have. Scour the 563 threads to see many examples of that.

I think the lowest price unit that did get BM close to right was the Denon 2200. While it was not flexible, S&V tested it to have an 80 Hertz crossover. If you had a typical 5 sats + sub, you would not really need an ICBM. Beside that, you need to spend a lot more $$$$.

Brian
 

Mike Keith

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I have the Sony 777Es player and I'm pretty sure (with latest Firmware) it is the latest in BM and there is no comparison to the ICBM route.

Also, Kevin, how do you know your player is doing BM right, have you compared it to an ICBM (or equivalent) in your system?
 

Kevin C Brown

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I have a 59AVi, and because of the issues with prior Pioneers, I have tested this one extensively to make sure the BM works as it's supposed to. DVD-A and SACD. The funny part? I settled on using all large, sub on anyway. I have phase issues between the main speakers and the sub, between the 5.1 analog outputs of the player vs anything digitally processed in my pre/pro otherwise.

Check it out: www.etfacoustic.com This is just one of the tools I use.
 

Lewis Besze

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That's hardly what you were trying to say at all.What you actually claiming is that analog is the only "proper" way to do BM which is rubbish.Now, I do understand if you preffer analog to digital in any situation, but to call it[analog BM] "proper" or "refference" is only reflect on your understanding of digital technology, or on your obvious "bias" against it, take your pick.David Ranada of S&V mag has been complaining about proper BM in Hi-Rez players till recently he tested the Denon 3910. He used test equipment and tones to determine the crossocer slope and points to all formats the player can play. He concluded that this player is just as good and almost as versatile as those found in receivers.Don't know many people complaining about those have you?
 

Mike Keith

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No, I clearly implied this is my opinion based on my experiences of many different combinations, and clearly stated that those units with proprietary digital links between the Player and Processor are the only ones that can handle the throughput of the digital stream without degradation (again opinion based on experience). My second point is that you seem to be talking from no experience here and basing you opinion on speculation and have obviously have not tried to compare the analog (ICBM) BM to a typical digital BM method, so from what experience are you trying to argue your point.
;)
 

Mike Keith

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That’s because your player isn't doing BM correctly, no big surprise there, the phase issues are separate and shouldn’t be a big problem, just change your distance setting for the sub in your processor.


I also have the full ETF suite including their new R&D which links to the BFD for filter correction.
 

Lewis Besze

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Once again read some of my posts here and do a search on the subject here, you'll find what is my experience, and there is no speculations on my part.Perhaps if you only make points that you can actually back up without being looking like a fool, we might have something to talk about? Till then..........
 

Mike Keith

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Sorry, didn’t understand, so your opinion based on reading some articles is more valid then my opinion based on experience, now I understand where you are coming from. Now I know not to take you seriously, your just here to beat your chest and proclaim your knowledge above anyone else’s.

Thanks for the laugh…Fool!
 

Scotty P

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Girls...You're both pretty.

I'm getting a little tired of my inbox getting filled with notification that more of this mindless banter has been posted on this thread. Perhaps we can keep things in perspective and read an opinion, then choose whether we agree or not without filling this thread with criticism of those we disagree with. Then, get back to the point of discussion regarding why the sub channel is lower at times and what equipment handles it best.

Thanks
 

Kevin C Brown

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Huh? The player *is* doing BM correctly. Why do you assume that it isn't? It uses 80 Hz crossovers for both DVD-A and SACD. This has been confirmed by other users on AVS. I have verified this too, in addition to using ETF5, with separate DVD-A and SACD test discs. Like Lewis said, this is your "analog" bias showing through again. :)


Actually, you might be right about changing that distance. That changes the phase relation with the digitally processed info but it won't affect the player's outputs. So I adjust the pre/pro to match the player...
 

Mike Keith

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Jan 24, 2002
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324


I wasn’t accusing, I was asking what reference (physical reference) you have to connect your conclusion. Every thing here is someone’s opinion, I clearly stated mine, is it not OK to have an opinion on a forum full of opinions?

I am biased toward the analog method because it works better then any digital method I've used, and I was conveying the information of analog vs. typical Digital, IMO. I spent a lot of energy trying to prove to myself it was actually working better then my revised 777ES BM, which is quite good. Not trying to shove this down any ones throat, sorry if it came across that way, you can leave it if you want.
 

Kevin C Brown

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Your statement isn't that of an opinion though. ("I think", "I believe", etc) Your statement is a "fact", which is not the case in this instance.
 

Mike Keith

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Jan 24, 2002
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I guess the fact that I reiterated in my last post that it was my opinion wasn’t good enough. Obviously you would rather discuss the semantics of my posting vernacular then the topic. Maybe I should just leave this discussion alone.

BTW, everything I write is an opinion based on my experience.
 

Lewis Besze

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Sorry, but these things happens,and you get notification on all posts not just on "banters". As for the topic in hands, it has been answered by many with all sorts of point of view!

Mike Keith welcome to my ignore list! D.A.!
 

dobyblue

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Jul 5, 2004
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Steve
I'm posting in here as this therad was started before mine.
I have resolved my issues with the Sub channel.
On my 1014TX receiver whatever you set the Multi Channel In setting to stays that way, so I set my sub channel to +10db with every other channel at 0.
I also had just a JBL 5.1 system and I've since gone back to 7.1 by moving the front left and right speaker to the rear surround left and right 6th and 7th channels.
I added two Paradigm Monitor 11 speakers as my front left and right speakers and now the DVD-Audio and SACD discs sound incredible. I believe that satellite speaker systems, which really count on the subwoofer to provide all the bass, are not suited to DVD-Audio and SACD music which moves a lot more bass through the main speakers.
I am now truly happy with my set-up and listen to my DVD-Audio discs through the advanced resolution set-up rather than through the Digital Coaxial DD/DTS format.
Thanks to all that tried to help out though - it's good to see other people noticed this.
Now when I listen to the song "Closer" by Nine Inch Nails off the Downward Spiral DualDisc it really blows my mind.
I love my new Paradigm speakers - I'd recommend anyone give them a test run. My main channel only boost 110W per side, but it sounds like a whole lot more. Very efficient speakers and their imaging is stunning.
I should also mention that I did adjust my player to be +6db on all channels as well as setting my L and R speakers to Large now on both my Pioneer VSX1014TX and my Pioneer DV-45A player. the cable I'm using for the Paradigms is the Ultralink Excelsior 2.4 cable which I'm incredibly pleased with. Nothing but pure audio bliss in my house now.
 

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