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DVD audio/SACD Subwoofer channel lower volume (1 Viewer)

Scotty P

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That's the point of this thread. Most lower priced universal disk players don't have adequate BM. Most recievers until the latest models (with few exceptions) don't do any BM on the multichanel input. Even the higher priced universal disk players that do decent BM may only have +/- 6dB level adjust, may not be enough considering Denon recievers default to +15 on the Subwoofer boost. Then, even when you do get enough boost for the Subwoofer the question becomes when in the chain that boost happens, and how the LFE channel is balanced to the redirected low frequecies when speakers set to small.
 

Mike Keith

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Jan 24, 2002
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The only way a player can do BM is via DSP, DSP can't handle the massive amounts of data on Hi-Rez with current technology, that's why none work properly, not even the latest and greatest players. Give up on proper BM from within the player, it wont happen.
 

Lewis Besze

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First of all there are far newer players at that price range that uses far more sophisticated chips for BM then that Sony did years ago, second BM in analog domain is not inherently superrior to digital, not by a long shot. I'm aware it is desirable to some based on their prefferences, but it is certainly not for everyone.
I do agree with you that the best way is to have a digital link between the player and the receiver/-pre/pro, to simplify things and avoid extra conversion. With the promise of HDMI it might happen one day. There are currently some propreatary connections out there with certain models that fits that bill.But again it's not universal.
 

PhilBoy

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I switched connections from the CD analog input to the 6 channel input, set all speakers to small, sub-Yes and cranked the sub's crossover to max and increased the sub's volume to balance out the bass for the SA-CD DVD-A material.

I have one notch marked on the sub for the 6 channel analog input/output and another for the receiver's digital input/output level.

Thanks for the tip on the extra conversion step due to the receiver's internal digital BM.

All this means is that I will have to get up off my fanny perpendicular and adjust the sub volume depending on the source. No more inconvenient than flipping an album.
 

FeisalK

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May 1, 2003
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Philboy,

not sure if I did you a favor :b - just pointing it out that it did involve an extra AD/DA stage. Sometimes the benefits of BM on the receiver far outweighs "purity of signal".

If you have satellites or small bass-light bookshelves and are only listening to 2.0 SACD/DVD-A then the sub won't be engaged at all if you go via the 5.1 analog inputs (except as Lewis says earlier, a few higher end receivers will do the BM on the analog inputs - still involving a AD/DA stage)

I think you should keep an ear out for how the sound has changed/not changed if its for the better or worse; and it's not wrong to prefer the one with proper BM despite the additional AD/DA stage as opposed to crappy/zero bass management in the player. The whole point of the audio system is that it sounds good to you.
 

PhilBoy

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The sub is just a thumpin'.

I have all 6 channel analog connections connected even though I'm usually running Stereo, and now, I can have both, surround & stereo :).
 

Scotty P

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True, and hopefully 10 dB is enough, if it turns out you need 12-15 dB you're out of luck. However, combining a DVD player (with the +/- 6 dB adjust) with a reciever (such as the Integra) that has sub boost and BM you should be able to compensate for anything.
 

Mike Keith

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Jan 24, 2002
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Lewis:


It isn’t a-boot how sophisticated the chips for BM are, it's a-boot the data rate that it would have transfer in order to get the full resolution and volume balance out of the .1 channel, it takes a huge amount of fast data to match the source resolution. A DSP of this age does not have a wide enough highway for all the traffic required to deliver a truly enjoyable ride.

All I’m saying is that you have obviously not tried an ICBM or equivalent in your system, if you had, I don’t think you would feel so well about the DSP method of BM.
:)
 

Lewis Besze

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Is the Outlaw 950's analog BM counts?
It actually inverts polarity, or cause a huge phase shift, because I have to reverse the sub cable[ I have passive subs] to get the bass sound right. I had 3 different units they all exhibited this anomoly.Outlaw has no answer as to why this happens.I've heard a few ICBM users on this board mentioning the same thing.
Regards!;)
 

Lewis Besze

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Nonesense! The only issue is with according some DSP engineers is with DSD as most chips work as PCM "native" therefore a conversion is needed.Some manufacturers claiming they do BM in DSD domain however, like Sony and Denon.The tough part was actually to implement time alligment on SACD that feature was completelly missing from early players.
 

PhilBoy

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I have noticed a huge difference from disc to disc and from DVD-A to SA-CD in the amount of adjustment to fine tune the bass output to blend with the 5 main channels with a 6 channel output from the 588A.

Obviously for my set up (and for the variety of titles I play) there is no 'best' setting for the sub volume.

A minor inconvenience for the benefits of AdRes listening.

I'm kinda liking surround mixes now.
 

PhilBoy

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Sep 30, 2003
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No, but yesterday I got Linda Ronstadt's "What's New" on DVD-A. I haven't been able to stop playing it.

I've owned the LP and CD so I know the material verbatim, and the surround mix on this disc is stunning. Tons of bass too :) I almost have the set the sub volume to 2.

The surround mix has Linda's vocal 90% on the centre channel. If you don't hear the Rice Crispies 'snap, crackle, pop', your centre speaker should be just dandy. (I had doubts about mine).

An old friend of mine saw her twice live and said she doesn't need a microphone, her voice is so powerful.
 

Scotty P

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My guess is that BM in the player is possible. But, with processing to handle the higher resolution necessary it makes it more expensive, resulting in only the higher priced units having adequate BM, with it slowly trickling down to the less expensive units. The sad thing is that manufacturers did put out lower priced units claiming universal playback, but not having the necessary BM made it unusable.
 

Scotty P

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I started this thread after setting up both a toshiba sd 5915 and a panasonic (can't remember model number), both 5 disk changers, that clients had purchased. From memory I believe the toshiba had no level adjustments at all for each channel, the other had balance controls (to balance center and rear to the main) neither allowing for proper setup as has been mentioned throughout this thread. All of the manuals for the non elite pioneer units I have read don't seem to have level adjustments.

As a general rule I don't think I have found any universal player that offers level adjustment for each channel, independently, including the subwoofer, for under $200 until very recently. I think the newer toshiba units do, not sure what else.

In addition to why the problem with the lower subwoofer output exists, I was hoping to identify equipment that had adequate BM in this thread, particularly in the lower priced equipment.
 

Kevin C Brown

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Out of curiosity, I just looked at the instructions for the Pioneer 588. It does look like it has crossovers for DVD-A and SACD. (In the old days, manuals for other Pio players specifically said if the crossovers applied or not to SACD or DVD-A. Here, doesn't differentiate.) But there are no levels settings. So, you either have to have an ICBM with this player, or spend more money for a player that does have level adjustments.
 

Scotty P

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Or...have a receiver that does adequate BM on the multichannel inputs independent of the main setup. Some that do have been mentioned on this thread, although some level adjust on both the player and the receiver would be ideal.
 

Mike Keith

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Jan 24, 2002
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You will never know if the player or processor is doing proper BM if you don’t have a reference to proper BM. This is the point I was trying to get across (unsuccessfully) to Lewis. Pontificate and speculate all you want, when you get tired of that just get a ICBM and hear it done right, then you might come to the same conclusion I did using 4 different players and 3 different processors.
 

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