DVD Audio firewire standard approved (1 Viewer)

[MikeH1]

Not sure if this was discussed here before but here's the article
http://www.audiorevolution.com/news/...firewire.shtml
Great!! My DVD player I bought 6 months ago is now officially outdated! And so is my Denon 2802!!
Hopefully, along with the release of some good titles ( its starting to happen woohoo!!) this is the beginning of something good for DVD A.

 

[ReggieW]

I hear you Mike,

This certainly has thrown a wrench in my plans. I was looking to get a Denon AVR-3803 next month, but will likely wait until Denon incorporates the firewire software into their existing components. What I like about this approved standard, is that ALL manufactuerers will be adding firewire to their future players, meaning, it need not be limited to expensive devices like the Denon 5803/9000 and the Meridian gear. Denon is debuting a new universal player next month at CES, hopefully, they will incorporate the technology into this player. Either way, I ain't buying until this firwire technology is available.

Reg

 

[KeithH]

Michael,

Thanks for sharing the link. This is great news! I'm not sure that firewire will matter to the average consumer, but to folks like us, it is a huge development.


Reggie,

I hear you. I have toyed with the idea of upgrading my DVD-Audio player to something like the Denon DVD-3800, but I've been holding out for more software. Now I'm definitely going to wait until a good selection of quality and moderately-priced players appear with firewire. I may not upgrade my receiver anytime soon, but I would at least like my player to have the firewire port.

 

[Ryan Spaight]

Figures. I bought a Pioneer Elite DV-45A this weekend.
Ryan

 

[KeithH]

Ryan, you could always take it back and stare at your SACDs and DVD-Audio discs. Seriously though, how do you like the '45A?

 

[Ted Lee]

firewire is digital isn't it? so this should definitely alleviate the bass management issue.

but what about illegal copying? wasn't the whole point of running the 5.1 analog cabling because they didn't want a digital connection?

 

[MikeH1]

Thats correct Ted. I'm not sure how they plan on overcoming this problem but my moneys on watermarking the discs.

 

[Wayne Bundrick]

You'd probably lose that bet. My money is on encryption of the firewire data.

 

[KeithH]

Wayne, some DVD-Audio discs currently employ a watermarking scheme in which a code buried in the audio bitstream prevents copying. This seems similar to an encryption of firewire data that you referred to.

 

[John Kotches]

Keith,
No it isn't.
With an encrypted channel, you can't just grab the data off the wire (with a sniffer, or other methods of storing the raw digital data) and reassemble them at your leisure.
Well you still can, but you have to decrypt to get any meaningful information Without the key, you're stuck holding on to meaningless information.
Regards,

 

[Ryan Spaight]

Ryan, you could always take it back and stare at your SACDs and DVD-Audio discs. Seriously though, how do you like the '45A?

I replaced my Sony NS-500V with it, and I'm pretty happy. I really needed a universal player in order to get DVD-A, since my rack space and available connections wouldn't tolerate a second player.
The bass management actually works for MC SACDs, unlike the Sony, so I can finally enjoy the MC tracks! (I have a lot of SACDs to re-listen to now.) The LFE channel isn't boosted 10db on the analog outs, so I have to adjust the sub volume when using the 5.1 analog connection, but that's a headache I can live with. (Especially since my NHT sub has a separate component-size amp with a nice big volume knob up front.) So an ICBM isn't needed here unless you need the crossover control -- 100Hz seems to work fine for my setup.
I'm enjoying DVD-Audio. I've played with Steely Dan's Two Against Nature, R.E.M.'s Automatic For The People, Yes' Fragile, and Elvis 30 #1 Hits. It's annoying that no two discs seem to work the same way as far as navigating through the different mixes (the Elvis disc in particular leaves you to discover the various mixes for yourself, with nothing at all on-screen or listed on the package), but the sound is very good. Can't really say how it compares to SACD for me yet, but I can definitely say both formats are much better than CD.
SACD sound might not be quite as sharp as the Sony, but not bad. I've still got the CE-775 in my stereo system for that Sony SACD sound. The Pioneer's SACD ergonomics are not nearly as good as the Sony. With the Sony, you just have to use the "MCH/2CH" and "SACD/CD" buttons on the remote to select the various SACD mixes. With the Pioneer, you have go into a setup menu. Not a huge thing, but a pain. (The remote in general is worse than the Sony, with tiny little buttons. I like remotes that are like Ving Rhames' cell phone in the Radio Shack commercial. )
And, of course, it seems competent as a DVD player. It has the chroma bug, but so did the Sony, so that's a wash. The chroma bug doesn't bother me to the point that I would spend another $500 to get the Yamaha universal. (I believe that's the only universal without the bug.) I'm not using the progressive scan at the moment because I don't see a huge difference between that and using the deinterlacer in my Sony XBR450 TV. Plus, if I use the TV's deinterlacer, it switches between 4x3 and 16x9 modes automatically -- if I use the Pioneer's, I have to manually switch, which is a royal pain. The picture quality is fine. I think the Sony's may have been a smidge better, but I probably need to recalibrate things for the new player.
Ryan

 

[Ted Lee]

have any of you guys been able to tell (from an audio quality viewpoint) that a disc has been watermarked?

in other words, is the watermark audible in any way? there seems to be two sides to that coin???

 

[Ryan Spaight]

I have yet to see someone say, "Listen to disc X at time x:xx compared to the CD -- there's the watermark." I don't doubt it's audible under the right conditions, but no one's pointed to it yet outside of test discs.

The firewire encryption will be of the digital stream itself, and so should have no effect on the sound of the eventually decoded audio.

Ryan

 

[Philip Hamm]

have any of you guys been able to tell (from an audio quality viewpoint) that a disc has been watermarked?

I haven't, but I've only got a few DVD-A discs. Read about my experience copying Yes' "Fragile" to MiniDisc for "walk-around" purposes (as I've only ever owned the LP of "Fragile") on the "Fragile" thread.. No problems with the copy I made.

 

[MikeH1]

I have never heard a watermarked disc either but it would sure be interesting to do a a/b comparison. I think I read an article some time ago that concerning DAT the watermarking was audible so it was thrown out of court (not sure the details of the case). Perhaps now with technology always on the increase it isn't so obvious. But like I said I have never heard it (at least I don't think I have).

 

[Ted Lee]

well, i'm glad that the watermarking (appears) inaudible.

so, my next question - which really should have been part of my first question. :b

since the watermarking (or encrypted fire-wire for that matter) prevents copying, how will this affect fair-use rights?

 

[Thomas Newton]

I think I read an article some time ago that concerning DAT the watermarking was audible so it was thrown out of court (not sure the details of the case).

With DAT the record companies' first proposal was the CBS CopyCode notch. They wanted to cut a notch out of the frequency spectrum. All new recorders (analog or digital) would test for the notch and cripple themselves if they found it, i.e., NO RECORDING.

A Congressionally-ordered study of this system found that the notch WAS audible (contrary to the backers' claims), that there were many false positives (crippled recorders refused to record "unprotected" audio), and that there were many false negatives (crippled recorders recorded "protected" audio). This was sufficient to kill it, and we got SCMS instead.