DVD-A to be replaced by DualDisc??? (1 Viewer)

[Marc Colella]

There wouldn't be many SACD titles to choose from if they did ban ones from PCM recordings.

 

[LanceJ]

Wonder specifically what he meant by that.

 

[Phil A]

Bass management is not that bad. I have full range all the way around in the main system with subs on channels that need it. PCM is still the major force in the recording industry. I think many of the arguments on one format vs. the other get silly when one takes into acct. the art of mastering and mixing. I have examples in CD, DVD-A, SACD of good and bad mastering. There's music I like that I wish someone did a better mastering job on. While I still prefer stereo on most things, I liked (the Massenburg surround mixes - did not pay attention to who did them) What's New and Little Criminals on DVD-A in surround.

 

[Brian L]

Aw, come on Phil....its not that bad for US, but how about the average Joe?

With all due respect, the issue of BM is HUGE for anyone BUT folks that frequent forums like HTF.

Full range in every channel? Please! I wish I had a room that could support it, and even among the HTF Geeks, I would wager that sat/subs trump full range all around 10 to 1.

The first wave of Hi Rez players had NO bass management. The next batch did, but with crossovers as high as 200 Hz, and various other issues (You don't have a Sub? Tough nuts. BM in many players will not redirect the .1 to the mains).

And BTW, a lot of users found that the .1 channel was about 10dB too low coming out of the player.

To this day, Outlaw does a nice business selling ICBMs. Without it, I would never have been able to get the bess right in my rig.

To me, the whole hi-rez debacle can be distilled down to one sentence (I hate to do this, but paraphrasing Bill Clinton):

Its the MC tracks, Stupid!

The difference between well done Red Book and well done 2 CH SACD or DVD-A is just NOT big enough to move product. Factor in the fact that you can not rip hi-rez to listen in your iPod, and its game over for the average schmoe, and even some non-average shmoes.

BGL

 

[PaulDA]

I still think the solution would be single inventory Hybrid SACDs and DualDiscs (the Donnas notwithstanding) or (if DualDisc is too problematic, in the end) two disc releases of DVD-A and CD. I understand there are initial costs involved, but if they just endure the short term pain of the switchover, eventually economies of scale will drive down costs.

As for BM, I agree that it can be a pain, but with iLink (one hopes) becoming the standard, I think this issue won't be any more complex for the "average schmoe" than setting up for DD or DTS movie soundtracks (not that that doesn't flummox a fair number of people).

 

[Phil A]

Brian, I agree you're right that it may not be as good for the avg. person. I was talking about more people into the hobby. Also, the avg. person listening on most HTs will not appreciate the differences on 2-channel hi-rez as a crazy audiophile (like me with a $2.6k mod to his SACD player). Players have reached the point that with the exception of lower end stuff, differences are easily discernable. Whether the avg. person cares that much is another matter vs. just having clean undistorted sound. For example I have a DAC in the basement system which is not new but quite good. A few yrs. ago, on a decently recorded CD it would sound better than most DVD-As or SACDs every playing on $1k+ players. Not as true any longer. I bought a Sony 2000ES CD/SACD changer for the basement (already had a separate DVD-A/DVD-player) and it and played some well recorded stuff like Diana Krall's last album the the $399 changer on SACD was better vs. going thru the DAC (in its day $2.5k list) and an excellent transport. Yes my basement system still may be more elaborate than the avg. person but it is still quite remarkable the level of sound on SACD and CD that one can get from a $399 list changer.

Universal players are getting better at bass management but what I think they need for the avg. person is that one digital connection from the universal player and setting up the receiver for bass management. I've helped people who are totally confused with receivers that have different bass level adjustments for movies and music.

I have in the bedroom system one of those early players without bass management. It is a Pioneer Elite DV-47A. It goes into a Sony (about 3 yr. old) 444ES receiver which does have very decent controls for the multi-channel input. The multiple RCA cables don't bother me at all (I make them anyway) but I think most consumers want would more simplicity. Yes, the avg. person will be more drawn to the multi-channel since that will give them something that is clearly different from what they had a few yrs. ago and most people into HT like the idea of using those extra speakers for music vs. not using them.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Incorrect. PCM sourced SACDs are only a portion of available inventory. There are hundred of DSD discs and over a thousand done from analog tapes.

 

[Phil A]

Well apparently Sony is going to be one of first manuf. (not a surprise) to includes potential lack of compatibility in their players. In the other long thread, I noted it should be interesting since manuf. lists compatible formats in the beginning of the manual, what the next generation will do about DualDisc.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/news/

"Sony, inventors of the proprietary Super Audio CD (SACD) format, are in direct competition with industry standard DVD-Audio for higher than CD resolution audio. Now it appears Sony has sent a statement to their dealers concerning the DualDisc format. There have been various comments concerning this recent statement from Sony as many formats do not directly adhere to Red Book standards yet are playable on digital disc players from many manufacturers. The Red Book is a technical book that dictates audio CD. The Sony statement was sent from Wendy S. Ritchie of Sony Electronics TeleSales/CIS (630) 773-6120 [email protected] and reads as follows:

November 2, 2004

Dear Valued Sony Authorized Dealer,

As you are no doubt aware, the music industry is on the verge of launching a new two sided media product called DualDisc similar in size to a DVD and CD. This DualDisc mates DVD recorded material on one side with digital audio material on the other side. However, the audio side of this new media does not meet the technical specifications to be called an "Audio Compact Disc".

The DVD video content on the DVD side of the DualDisc should play on, and be compatible with, Sony DVD players and DVD drives. However, Sony DVD players and drives do not support DVD Audio and these devices will not play the DVD Audio formatted content offered on the DVD side of a DualDisc but should play all other audio content offered on the DVD side. In addition, since the audio side of the DualDisc does not comply with Audio Compact Disc specifications, it may not be read by Sony DVD and CD players and drives.

In an effort to inform consumers, Sony Electronics will be placing stickers on some of our products in the future alerting consumers to these potential compatibility issues. We will also advise consumers about this issue by our placement of inserts into our products as well as placing information (FAQs) on the sonystyle.com website. We trust that you will communicate this information to your employees so that they may properly educate consumers on this issue in order to minimize the risk of returns relating to compatibility between hardware products and DualDiscs.

If you have any questions regarding the above, please feel free to contact me.

Very truly yours,

Stan Glasgow

Sony has also stated, referring to their own electronics, that "DualDiscs may become jammed in the slots or racks of the holders of these products. We recommend that you do not attempt to play DualDiscs in these units." As of this writing Sony, with their proprietary SACD format, have no plans to offer hardware that supports the industry standard DVD-Audio format. One can only speculate why an electronics manufacturer such as Sony would not support industry standard DVD-Audio and DualDisc, instead, supporting only their own nonstandard SACD format."

 

[Brian L]

Phil.....great find there.

That would have to be one of the most disingenuous piles of bull shit I have read in a long time.

On the one hand, you have Sony Music doing a half-ass job with their DD releases so as not to hurt their beloved SACD sales, then their hardware people start putting out warning labels to further scare people away from the new format.

If the media is truly an issue, how the hell can your music division be selling it? Maybe the music division should put labels on the discs that their software may not play in Sony disc players?

I know...separate divisions, but working for a pretty big multinational corporation myself, I would expect that I would quickly find my nuts in a vice from the corporate directors if I issued a statement like that which specifically sites problems with product sourced from another or our divisions.

What a bunch of dick heads.

BGL

 

[Darryl]

So what makes DVD-Audio an industry standard and SACD non-standard? The fact that DVD-A was ratified by a consortium?

I agree that the letter sounds much more like spin than a sincere attempt to protect consumers, but I wouldn't consider DVD-A an industry standard any more than I would SACD.

 

[Marc Colella]

Maybe DVD and DVD-ROM player manufacturers should do the same and inform/warn the consumer that Hybrid SACDs may have potential compatability issues with their products.

 

[Marc Colella]

True, I'll correct my statement.

There would be very few mainstream titles available if they banned PCM sourced SACDs.

 

[Phil A]

I said when the DualDisc trial was under way in the select cities (you heard it here first), Sony's participation and not doing DVD-A was, in my opinion, a way to preserve their hold on SACD as the hi-rez format, confuse consumers and make DVD-A seem like a more inferior product. Sony tends to be protective of their unique formats like a mother alligator protecting eggs. This is not a new positon on just DualDisc for them.

I also noted in the very long thread that it is possible for problems to exist in changers or players that may or may not be due to DualDisc. DVDs can be authored in various ways and even cos. like Linn put in their Movie Classik manuals that if a (DVD-V) disc did not play due to authoring difficulties, it should not be assumed to be the fault of the player. I mentioned it would be interesting to see what happens now that DualDisc is a real product and what the various manuf. generally list (in their next generation products) what format a machine will play in the front of their manuals (e.g. MP3s, CD-Rs, VCDs, etc.). It does not surprise me Sony was first but it also won't surprise me if they're not the only one to do this. It is an easier out for a manuf. to blame something other than themselves and avoid warranty repairs and lawsuits should there be failures. As I previously noted, there were class action lawsuits for some mainstream DVD players not playing a bunch of discs due to firmware issues. I'm also sure Sony directing this to their dealers is an attempt to get some of them to discourage DualDisc sales among consumers. I noted that I personally won't experiment with them in my players and anything released I want I may stick on my 'to buy' list and wait and see as I have my usuall back log of stuff and more on the way.

Marc, SACDs, claim to be compatible in CD players and not DVD players as far as I know (I could be mistaken - would not be the first time). Yes they do have problems in certain PCs and I know in some older Toshiba DVD players (I had a friend with the 4700). He took the SACDs into the store and every other consumer DVD player they had on hand played it. I also think that you when you say mainstream DSD titles you are largely talking about non-classical and jazz stuff. There (according to SA-CD.net) are 2,547 available (SACD) titles and 502 are DSD. I think I went thru them in another thread and out of the 502 there were something like 6 or 7 pop/rock ones and only 2 or 3 that most would consider mainstream title of those.

 

[Marc Colella]

I'm not sure if they made any mention that their discs won't play in DVD players, or just avoided it by not mentioning DVD players at all.

The problem is the Hybrid SACDs have the Compact Disc logo on it, and most DVD/DVD-ROM players have that same logo (and, generally speaking, never fail to play a CD).

Also, I have a CD Player that won't play Hybrids, and my brother's CD deck in his car also has problems (others have mentioned it as well). So it's not that uncommon.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Thanks.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Correct. Especially mainstream pop/rock. And especially surround.

Heck, if SACDs weren't allowed to have a PCM-sourced 5.1 mix, most of the surround discs wouldn't exist.

 

[Brian L]

Saw mention of this at the Secrets Forum, and found a link right at Pioneers web site:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pn...057205,00.html


Its not like DD was just sprung on the public overnight...if Pio had issues, WTF did they not make it known when the Seatle/Boston trials were being done?

Much stronger language than the Sony warning, although they do suggest that Pio will do some tests and update the warning as needed.

BGL

 

[Phil A]

Brian, that's pretty much what I said in the long DualDisc thread that these things are not fully tested and I'm fine to stick them on my 'to buy' list but not willing to be the guinea pig and that I would expect manuf. to address this in their next generation product manuals. I also noted that the local hi-fi shop where I am has 2 or 3 seminars (and food and beer and wine) a yr. after CES in Jan. and Feb. where manuf. demo new stuff. Last yr. it was Linn and Rotel. The store sells a lot of Linn stuff and I'm hoping Rotel comes back since I really enjoyed their demo. I hope to be able to ask them face to face where they'll generally tell you stuff that they won't necessarily officially publish.

 

[Brian L]

Its all just pretty mind boggling to me.

I can't recall ever a hi-fi or HT product being released to the public concurrent with warnings advising that you may NOT want to use it, and coming from major electronics companies.

Its probably a good thing that the general public is normally oblivious to this stuff, otherwise that would be it for DD. It would never have a chance.

BGL

 

[Paul.S]

Thx for the EnjoytheMusic.com link/post of the Sony statement, Phil.

Just a point of important clarification: the last paragraph of what you quote (the part which includes "One can only speculate why an electronics manufacturer such as Sony would not support industry standard DVD-Audio and the upcoming DualDisc, instead, supporting only their own nonstandard SACD format") is editorial commentary by that site and is not part of the Sony statement.

Interesting that the statement was sent by one person (Wendy S. Ritchie) and attributed to another (Stan Glasgow).

Although I feel your indignation, Brian, this statement does not surprise me at all, with one exception. Their basis for saying DVD-A content is not going to play on their machines is understandable. But their rationale for saying ". . . since the audio side of the DualDisc does not comply with Audio Compact Disc specifications, it may not be read by Sony DVD and CD players and drives" is suspect. The former issue is Sony-specific, the latter is not; that one is DualDisc-specific. In other words, Dual's not conforming to the CD spec is an issue for all CD hardware manufacturers. To include that verbiage in a statement about a Sony-specific hardware issue is sloppy and, yes Brian, disingenuous. They should have at least said "[the audio side of the DualDisc] may not be read by CD players."

Another bit of mild Sony hypocrisy not yet mentioned is that, when Sony released Celine Dion's Brand New Day with what was reported to be enough copy protection to crash a PC if you attempted playback of the disc in a CD-ROM drive, they only quietly removed the Compact Disc logo from the title. :rolleyes

I think the latter hits that nail on the head.

-p