DVD-A/SACD Player Low LFE Channel poll

Discussion in 'Playback Devices' started by Brian L, Aug 18, 2003.

  1. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    This poll is for users of universal players (DVD-V,DVD-A, SACD) as well as combo players DVD-V and/or SACD/DVD-A.

    1. Did you have the commonly reported issue of Low sub/LFE channel level when calibrating levels with your player?

    2. What gear do you have the 5.1 outs of your player connected to.

    3. If you did have the problem, how did you resolve it?

    Note: Most newer Denon receivers have an internal, switchable boost for the .1 channel that some users have employed to resolve the issue.

    The reasoning for this non-scientific poll is to try to nail down which players may or may not have this issue, and identify what connected equipment is present.

    I experienced this problem with a Pioneer 45A connected to an older Marantz SR-96 receiver. I helped a friend start up his 45A with an older Denon receiver, and saw the same result. The 45A .1 channel required +10dB more gain than the sub channel of the internally decoded sources.

    But, I now have a new receiver (NAD 762), and low and behold, I no longer have a 10 dB difference in levels on the .1 channel.

    Which begs the question "What the F*ck?".

    I know there are quite a few users that reported seeing the issue last fall when the first affordable uni and combo players showed up.

    But I have had recent conversations with other HTF users (hello Kevin and Lewis) that are not seeing the problem with the same player that I have. The difference, however, is that they are using newer pre/pro's or receivers (the Outlaw 950 for example).

    So, if the same player sees different results depending on what it is connected to, I would have to think that some pre/pro's or receivers have built in compensation for this. The Denon stuff obviously does because its switchable, but other gear has no such feature, yet there is no problem in calibrating.

    Thanks for your input.

    BGL
     
  2. FeisalK

    FeisalK Screenwriter

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    caveat: I'm playing it by ear (literally) so it isnt scientific, but it serves the purpose for movies and multichannel audio without having to tweak things when changing sources

     
  3. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Brian- Be careful in that some people who don't know about the *definitely* low sub test tone from the Pioneer and Denon, might *think* they have low LFE, but they really might not if they used a test disc like Avia or Chesky. As for my official responses: [​IMG]

    1. No. (Thought I did, but Lewis straightened me out.)


    2. 45a then 47ai to the Outlaw 950, and now the 47ai to a Lexicon MC-8.

    Via email, I mentioned the Sony TA-E9000ES, but this isn't a valid comparison, because it doesn't have 5.1 analog inputs, and I never tried with the P9000ES I had in my posession for a very short time.
     
  4. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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  5. Darryl

    Darryl Stunt Coordinator

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  6. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    Come on all you 563, 2900, 1600 owners....stand up and be counted! This is all in the interest of science, and for us all to better understand how this stuff works.

    If you don't chime in, I am going to go back and edit all my posts in all of your threads to remove anything helpful I may have said there about YOUR players. And I will hold me breath until I turn blue, too[​IMG]

    BGL
     
  7. Jeff O.

    Jeff O. Stunt Coordinator

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    OK I,ll bite. 2 setups.
    1. Yes on both
    2. 45a to Yammy 1000, 563a to Yammy 1105

    Resolution was similar on both systems.
    First, balanced speaker levels using Avia and decoder in receiver using coaxial in.

    Next, balanced speaker levels using Avia and decoder in 45a and 563a (at a setting of around -5db to compensate for low LFE) using analog ins.

    Next, using Avia, adjusted sub level using decoder in 45a or 563a and the subwoofer gain control (powered subwoofer in both) to match level above. Note, that I was surprised that the subwoofer setting in the Yammy affected the analog inputs somewhat. (Also to FeisalK, I try to keep my SW setting on the Yammies to at least -10. Reviews of most Yammy units by David Ranada in S&V exhibited excess noise if the SW setting was much higher than -8, as I recall).

    As a final step, I used Avia to set the SW level for DD and DTS in the Yammie decoder by adjusting the DD and DTS LFE output levels.

    Sorry this was kind of long, but that is the procedure that I used. I don't have any test disks that have DVD-A tones, so I can't say for sure that they would be consistent. However, using this setup I can say that I get plenty of bass on both DVD-A and SACD. Could it be better, maybe, but I am really happy with both of them.

    Jeff
     
  8. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    Thanks Jeff.

    Not being versed in the Yammy line, how old are those units?

    BGL
     
  9. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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  10. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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  11. Jeff O.

    Jeff O. Stunt Coordinator

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    Brian,
    I am not exactly sure, but around 3 and 5 years old.

    Lewis,
    I guess I don't follow you. If they are not there for calibration purposes, what are they there for? I use them to calibrate the subwoofer out for DD and DTS sources, after I calibrate the sub for other 2 ch sources, and in the above case for the analog ins.

    Jeff
     
  12. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    OK, the current tally is 4 Yes, and 7 No.

    In my case, I did see the problem through the 45A through the 5.1 inputs of my old receiver (Marantz SR-96), but no longer see it with the 5.1 inputs of my new receiver (NAD 762). I have added 1 Yes and 1 No on my behalf.

    KCB, you get 2 No's, since you ran the same players to two different pre/pros.

    John Kotches, if I read you reply correctly, you had three examples where you are using a 5.1 analog connection, so I actually counted you as 3 No's.

    Since you were kind enough to join the poll, would you have any thoughts on the issue? Part of me would like to think that a bunch or us are on crack, but I have done many, many tests on this, with a variety of test discs. If I was doing anything wrong to generate false measurements, I have no idea what.

    And although they have not joined the poll, there are several users of some of the players in question that have reported similar results in their player specific threads.

    Thanks so far for everyones involvement.

    BGL
     
  13. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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  14. John Kotches

    John Kotches Cinematographer

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    Brian,

    This is exactly why digital standards should be implemented ASAP for SACD and DVD-A as much as possible.

    Once this occurs, most of these problems will go away.

    Correctly implemented, a DD/DTS decoder should directly add the pad so that LFE playsback is at +10dB, and not engage the pad for DVD-Audio and/or SACD.

    Sadly, DTS released some CD titles that didn't account for the 10dB pad and you had to "unpad" the channel to keep from having bloated bass.

    I'm not sure if this helped at all.

    Regards,
     
  15. Lee Scoggins

    Lee Scoggins Producer

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    Not really an issue for me since I listen mostly in 2 channel.

    I agree with John that we need digital standards immediately.
     
  16. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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  17. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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    Brian,

    Sorry, the other thread is kinda long so I'll ask here:

    Did you buy a 563A (you only mention the 45A in your posts)? If so do you not have a BM issue with the 563A/T762 combo? I ask because if you don't I'm going to pull the trigger on that purchase pretty soon.

    If you don't own a 563A, what would you say the chances are that the T762 "fixes" or compensates (whatever the proper term is) for the BM issue for that model?

    Thanks!
     
  18. Lewis Besze

    Lewis Besze Producer

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  19. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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  20. Carlo Medina

    Carlo Medina Executive Producer

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    Well I guess it's only a temporary $170 deduction off of my charge card to find out. I am constantly surprised at the unspoken bells and whistles of the 762. One thing I noticed was that it must counteract the -4dB dialnorm of DD tracks, because I no longer have to adjust the volume between DD and DTS tracks (like I did with my Sony 555ES - I even checked the old discs I knew had different volumes for DD/DTS tracks).

    And I am familiar with those great AV presets of the T762, so it would indeed make it a simple two-button press to switch back and forth.

    Damn I'm talking myself into this purchase. If someone says that there is a region hack (it's already been confirmed to do PAL to NTSC for Region 0) I'm all over this.
     

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