Dual Subs?

Discussion in 'Speakers & Subwoofers' started by Sam A, Oct 22, 2004.

  1. Sam A

    Sam A Stunt Coordinator

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    Does anyone have one sub for music and another sub to fill the earth moving LFE? im getting beeokshelves and ceiling mount surrounds but want the good bass. my assumtion is that I will need one sub to fill the bottom end of music and another to fill the boooootttttooooom end. any suggestions?
     
  2. Ilkka R

    Ilkka R Second Unit

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    No, one GOOD sub is enough. Look something from SVS, M&K, B&W, Rel...
     
  3. Brian L

    Brian L Cinematographer

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    One sub properly positioned and calibrated should work fine. Keep in mind that it can be hard to get a single sub properly integrated into a system. Adding multiples means that the effort is also multiplied.

    But (there is always a but, right?) some serious HT designers (Russ Herschelmen for example, who writes for Ultimate AV) recommend at least two, in some cases three, at the 1/2 way points of the width, length, and height.

    I am sure my Wife would love the site of a sub half way up the wall!

    But even in his applications, the subs get the same signal.

    As for a separate sub for redirected bass for music and one for just the LFE, there is a fellow that posts frequently over at the Outlaw Saloon that does that. Haven'y tried it myself.

    I am experimenting with two in my room now, both getting the combined bass, but each individually EQ'd.

    One behind my couch toward the back of the room, and one in the front corner. Having said that, since I got a better EQ, I am now running just the one behind me. Its kind of cool that you absolutely can not tell that the bass is NOT coming from the front of the room.

    BGL
     
  4. Sam A

    Sam A Stunt Coordinator

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    well one sube would be starting at 150 Hz and the other at 30 Hz. the music one is totally locateable, and most HT subs arent made to go that high.
     
  5. frank manrique

    frank manrique Supporting Actor

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    I use ten subs for both MUSIC and home theater. Why use one for music and the other for home theater soundtracks if you were to use a pair of subs?... [​IMG]

    -THTS

    "...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."
     
  6. Sam A

    Sam A Stunt Coordinator

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    Frank, I dont understand, i wouldnt use a stereo signal, dont even know how to get stereo LFE. how are your subs x''dover?
     
  7. dave alan

    dave alan Second Unit

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    Sam A,

    You're assumption is a good one.

    The problem with this routing scheme is that nearly every pre/pro and receiver ever designed has bass management that caters to the summed single digital bass signal found in Cirrus Logic's original patent application.

    There are work around connection schemes that work well, but that's what they are...work arounds...unless you're lucky enough to own a Lex MC-12 pre/pro.

    I've been using a 'music' sub for discrete redirected bass and a flat to below 10 Hz, in-room 4KWatt 2X15" beast for discrete LFE for 2 years.

    I have had, at any given time, 23 subs in my HT, calibrating, listening to and measuring stereo subs + LFE sub, 1 RB + 1 LFE sub, 1 summed signal sub and multiple summed signal subs.

    I currently have 12 subs, ranging from 2, 1X10" sealed, all the way up to 2 1X18" ported subs each in a 10 cubic foot box.

    The reason I mention the subs is to drive home the point that I've exhaustively tried countless schemes of signal, crossover, filter slope, placement, and SPL levels with every known format and genre of source.

    My conclusion is that discrete sub systems is far superior to any multiple of summed signal sub system, for more than a few reasons.

    YMMV, IMHO, etc., etc.

    BTW, I'm 'the fella' at the Outlaw Saloon. [​IMG]
     
  8. Sam A

    Sam A Stunt Coordinator

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    so i just need to break up with my girlfriend then and win the lottery huh?

    Im most likely getting 2 B&W bookshelves for mains with matching center, so the bass will be lacking. since ive demoed speakers, ive always loved the room shaking bass, different than the chest thumping bass im used to in my CV's. but I always noticed the sub in the corner. i just want to make sure I get the mid bass as well as the low bass. I read even the velodyne 1812 has a 12 and an 18. so to have redirected subs i need amps with high pass and all that and a dedicated sub that means $$ then I need a goo...bah humbug! ill sleep on this for a while
     
  9. Aaron_Mum

    Aaron_Mum Stunt Coordinator

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    Sam A, I assume you are a normal person. Certain bassaholics on this thread are not normal but us guys with only one sub love them anyway!

    If you start with one good sub you should be able to get the effect you desire. A lot of it is going to depend on your room and how much you want to tinker with your gear. The drawback of corner loading a sub is that you can locate it better, so maybe you don't put it in the corner. The quest for perfect bass will go on from there.

    If you are really concerned with getting full range sound buy some floorstanders instead of bookshelves.It will be cheaper to go that way that buying a bunch of subs and trying to get them all working together.

    I cannot address the issue of discrete subs vs multiple subs. That is way over my head and I will leave the bassaholics to debate that one!
     
  10. dave alan

    dave alan Second Unit

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    Many apologies...

    Just to clarify, I'm only using 1 sub for redirected bass and 1 sub for LFE.

    I keep the others around for various tests at different price levels because I'm a builder by trade and I place the subs in HTs that we build.

    I'm not...I repeat not...as insane in the membrane as Frank. [​IMG]

    He's definitely the reigning champ bassaholic around here.
     
  11. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Dave- You're BoB? [​IMG]

    Sam- Actually, there is an easy way to get "stereo" subs.

    Both subs should be identical. Need to have speaker level inputs and outputs. You set up your pre/pro (receiver) to be front = large, center/surrounds/rears = small, and no sub. All bass gets routed to the two "mains". You use each sub to crossover between the sub and each front speaker. Should be "stereo" but might depend on how exactly the pre/pro (rec) is doing the routing.
     
  12. frank manrique

    frank manrique Supporting Actor

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    quote:
    __________________________________________________ _______

    I'm not...I repeat not...as insane in the membrane as Frank.

    He's definitely the reigning champ bassaholic around here.
    __________________________________________________ _______

    Gee, Dave...thanks for acknowledging I even exist, even though you practically have me in the looney bin! [​IMG]

    Yep...am an SVS bassaholic and offer no apologies for being so. However, I find it sort of funny that so many folks seem to be quite resentful (envious?) of my being a multiple-subwoofer user. Oh, well...to each his own as they say...

    By the way...do you work for Outlaw? The reason I ask is because I have an ICBM-1 that no sooner got plugged in to replace an electronic crossover that quitted on me, that another huge electrical disturbance did it in (a huge chunk of the Western electrical power grid took a dump the day my ICBM-1 quit working).
    I bought the ICBM-1 to experiment with its bass management features, which Outlaw claims has in spades...

    -THTS

    "...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."
     
  13. dave alan

    dave alan Second Unit

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    KCB,

    Yup...and waiting patiently for your thoughts on the new sub vs the V, cause I've always trusted your opinions.

    Frank,

    Nope, I don't work for Outlaw, but I've purchased almost every product they make, either directly or through clients. The ICBM is easily one of the best MC bargains ever. Very clean, very accurate.

    They also have great customer service. I'd shoot an e-mail.
     
  14. ScottCHI

    ScottCHI Screenwriter

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    he's suggesting you connect however many subs you have to the lfe output.

    although some do, most people with multiple subs do not make a distinction between which is for music which is for movies.
     
  15. Eric Chong

    Eric Chong Extra

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    Sam A what pre/pro or receiver are you using? In my case I use a Bryston SP 1.7. When I listen to 2 ch music (FM, CD, vinyl) my pre pro is purely two channel bypass thus there is no bass management. In this case I have the balanced connections out to the power amp for the L & R and the unbalanced connections to a Velodyne HGS-12 sub. So the HGS-12 is really only used for music when in 2 ch by passmode.

    For multichannel music and HT, I have the balanced sub out going to some EQ then a poweramp and then to two passive SVS Ultra's. So in my case I certainly have one sub for music and one for HT.
     
  16. frank manrique

    frank manrique Supporting Actor

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    quote:
    __________________________________________________ _______

    Frank,

    Nope, I don't work for Outlaw, but I've purchased almost every product they make, either directly or through clients. The ICBM is easily one of the best MC bargains ever. Very clean, very accurate.

    They also have great customer service. I'd shoot an e-mail.
    __________________________________________________ _______

    No offense intended by my question, Dave; just thought that perhaps you could help.

    I really like the ICBM-1 because of what it does and for its many features. It is quite the bargain you say it is!
    Hope to have mine up and running again real soon (that's one of the reasons why I haven't used the "big" HT system for quite a while).

    I joined Outlaw's Forum and Scott (moderator) has already suggested a fix, which I'll be performing soon...

    -THTS

    "...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."
     
  17. Sam A

    Sam A Stunt Coordinator

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    "The idea of a dual sub system is kind of what velodyne is doing with the 1812 sub" OK sure, can you loan me the $ for the friking sub?

    haha that sub is quite expensive.

    "Sam A what pre/pro or receiver are you using? In my case I use a Bryston SP 1.7"
    right now i have nothing. im going from an old yamaha receiver [2 channel from the 80's] to 7.1 here soon. Im very interested in the Emotiva talked about on AVS123 but I think in the near future before that comes out I will get the midiland ADS4000. I know its made for a computer, but I dont want to spend any extra $ I dont have to. so honestly I dont know what control Ill have over my Bass Management. I know I cant have floor standers so I need a good sub. and from what I hear, I cant have the sub in the room which is making me wqant IB, but I wanted to 'fill' the gap between house shaking bass and midrange with a nother sub. again I dont know what im doing. havent bought any stereo equip since 1980's.
     
  18. MikeNg

    MikeNg Second Unit

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    I helped my sister set up a dual sub system, with a dual-8" sub that extends down to about 38Hz, and an SVS 16-46CS+ to pick up the job below 40. It sounds pretty good, I must say, but you do have to make sure that each sub is crossed over correctly (IE the LFE sub has a low-pass at about the point the RB sub rolls off).

    I can't tell where the first sub stops and the second picks up.

    I'd concur with the other members - if you can get a sub that'll do duty both ways, that would be good. Are you certain that your mains only extend down to 150Hz? I know they're inwalls, but I have inwalls that easily reach down into the 40's with authority. Maybe you should consider better inwalls in lieu of a second sub. I think you'd probably be happier with the overall system performance. Anyway, My two pents...
     

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