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double bass setting on onkyo 605 (1 Viewer)

bambam

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Ben
need some help with this one, hopefully i give enough info. currently running onkyo 605 with KEF all around... IQ-7 front L & R, IQ-2C center, IQ-8DS rear L & R, and a PSW-2500 sub. it sounds great, except it seems as though something is missing. i have the double bass feature turned on. the problem is that it seems like there is a whole spectrum of sound (mostly bass) lacking from my towers now, which are currently bi-amped. when the double bass is off, the towers seem to push some bass, but then the sub seems to lack. what am i missing here? it seems like with the equipment i have, this is a solvable problem, but how? the fronts are set to full range, and the sub's gain is about halfway, with is crossing at around 90hz. what is the 24/12db setting on this sub anyways? i know my towers are capable of some deep bass, i ran only those 2 speakers in stereo mode with no sub while i was waiting to setup the rest of the surround sound. wow, i need some help here! someone please give me some advice, it would be much appreciated!!!
 

troy evans

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Ben the double bass feature redirects the bass from the front left and right speakers to the subwoofer. That's why they seem lacking when you have it engaged. The best thing to do is to turn it off and set all of your speakers to "100-120hz" in the receivers setup menu. Then in the receivers menu set the LFE to "100-120hz". Now, on the back of the subwoofer itself turn the crossover dial to it's highest point. If you can set it between 50hz to 150hz then set it to 150hz. That way you are only using the crossover in the receiver. If your sub has a switch that says "internal" or "direct", be sure to set it to "direct".
 

bambam

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Ben
ok i will try that out... now, you say 100-120hz, should i play around with either one, because i have the option of running 100, or 120hz, or should i always try to run the highest one (120)? also, any input on the 12/24db? thanks so much, i cant wait to get this fixed!
 

Brent_S

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I'm going to have to disagree with Troy, a bit...his explanatin of "Double Bass" is wrong.

Double Bass is only available when the mains are set to "full band". As "double" implies, L/R channel bass is produced in the mains and "doubled" in the subs. Any other channel not set to "full band" has bass routed to the subwoofer along with the LFE channel. Naturally, with your towers being fairly capable in the bass region, this produces more bass output...something you may prefer, but arguably less accurate. Nothing wrong with that.

When you run the front L/R "full band" and set "double bass=off", the subwoofer is no only producing the bass from the center/surrounds and the LFE channel. Now, you can tell your mains have the bass, but there's less of it since they're less capable than the sub and it's not picking up where your mains are leaving off.

Do set the "LPF of the LFE" to 120Hz. It's a confusing control that most manufacturers don't even give a user access too. It doesn't effect the 5 channels in the 5.1. It simply adjust how high the .1 frequency is. Dolby specs the channel as 3-120Hz with a brickwall at 120hz, but in reality most sound mixers start rolling it off above 80Hz.

As Troy said, you want to eliminate as much of the sub's processing as possible. Glancing at the manual, you don't have a way to completely bypass the onboard crossover. So, set it to maximum and I'd set the slope to 12dB

I recommend (re)running Audyssey. Afterwards, experiment with setting the main crossover to 60/80Hz. If the center and surrounds are "full band" or have xovers lower than 80Hz, also move them to 80Hz. This should give you the most accurate production your system is capable of. However, there are no hometheater police, so if you end up preferring your current setup, or want to boost the sub, center, surround levels over what Audyssey measures...that's ok too. The most important thing is what sounds best to you.

-Brent
 

troy evans

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I would use the 120hz setting all around. That's fronts, center, surrounds and sub LFE at 120hz. Audyssey is a great tool, however, it's not without it's flaws. The best tools to have are an SPL meter from radio shack and a tape measure that can reach far enough to where you sit from all speakers. These will give you completely accurate distance and sound level. First, use the tape measure to determine how far each speaker is from your listening area. Enter those values in the receiver. Second, using the SPL and the receivers test tones, I would adjust all speakers to a 75db level including the sub. Then, set the sub +4 or +5 from there. This is for what's known as WOW FACTOR. There are a couple more tips and tricks, but, try these first to see if you're satisfied. I own the 605 myself and love it. I entered my own EQ settings because I wasn't very happy with how Audyssey set them. That may have more to do with my personal preferances rather than anything on the Audyssey side.
 

David Willow

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When you ran Audyssey, what did it set the trim on the sub? It may be that you had the sub turned up too loud to start. If the trim is -12 or higher, it was too loud.

I suggest you set the crossover to as close to 80 Hz as possible without going lower than the value Audyssey found. I know there has been discussion here lately about 100 - 120 Hz, but I feel you can start to localize the sound (you can hear the sound from the sub and know where it is coming from.). Plus, many subs have problems above 100 Hz (including my $2K SVS). 80 Hz has been the recommended max for a long time - I'm not sure where all this other talk is originated.

LFE should be 120 Hz.
 

time4me2learn

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Joe
It stems from the fact that the 605 eqs the HDMI and optical input differently. If you plug a optical component in, you wil notice the bass always sounds louder. This is because the receiver puts a +10 eq gain on the bass output (the .1 channel). With HDMI, the 605 assumes the player is doing the +10 eq gain and does not add the extra bass output (the .1 channel). In my instance I am using a custom sub setup with PA amplifier. There was no way to remedy this either between the player or the receiver. The best I could do was add gain, but that turned on clip protection and wasn't much louder, so it wasn't an option However the product I use solves the problem for me.

AUDIO TECHNOLOGY - DYNAMIC PROCESSORS - ULTRAMIZER PRO DSP1424P : 24-Bit Digital Multiband Loudness Maximizer / Program Enhancer

It does what the 605 is supposed to be doing. It accepts 1/4 Balanced cables at -10 (Home Audio Level). So you would need two sets of 1/4 balanced to rcas.
That was my solution. Let me know if it all works out.
 

time4me2learn

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Joe
Let me see if I can explain this better. The receiver does a +10db gain on the Equalizer or the mix of of the sound for optical, it does not do this for HMDI. The only way to "fix it" is to increase the electrical voltage of the line(The gain option your seeing in the menu). But all that does is cause the signal to get distorted and could cause your sub to clip if there is no protection circuitry.

There have been threads about HDMI on other forums like AVS, but the thread usually ends with either: find a player that eqs the sound correctly, or deal with it. I chose the latter until I built my own sub setup.

I don't have a link to reference you to specifically, but try a test on your own and see if yours has the same problem.

If you were curious:
TX-SR605
to
Samson
S-Convert +4 to -10 Level Converter
to
Ebtech
HE2XLR 2 Channel Hum Eliminator
to
Behringer DSP1424P
to
Behringer EP2500
to
Rockford Fosgate T1's 12in DVC 2OHM
 

David Willow

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Dave
Some early AVRs had a bug with PCM LFE that has been fixed for a long time (possibly before the 605 was introduced?). This only effected PCM tracks.

Both Dolby and DTS specifiy a 10db boost in thier soundtracks. This has been the case for 10 years.

Beyound that, I have no idea what you mean.

This is what I can tell you for sure. My 705 test tones are -30 db. That means that I should get 75db on a SPL meter. I do (the sub is not accurate and it shouldn't be. SPL meter sucks with low freqs). I can also verify test tones off DVE BluRay (HDMI) are NOT -10 db. If what you say is true, that they should be.

As for your setup, if you enjoy it, then that is all that matters. For me, that is WAY overkill. I can't imagine the sync issues you must have....

For the OP, there are thousands of posts over at AVS on the 605, 705, and 805 and none mention this 'issue'. Add to that the hundreds more on the Audyssey thread and you would think someone would mention it. I mean a - db bug was discovered with the BD30 and you would think the sky was falling from the amount of posts. No such thing with your AVR.
 

time4me2learn

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Joe
What I was talking about was passing 7.1 DTS and Dolby HD Tracks over HDMI. For both my BDP-1400 and HD-A35 suffer from this the LFE -10db issue. If I pass optical for my Cable Box or Xbox 360, no problems at all.

I for the sub setup I run them at 450 watts RMS at 8 Ohms. (They are 4ohm DVC not 2ohm). Surprisingly enough I don't have any sync issues with the Subs, even on music tracks with a fast kicker. Even if I did the sound processor has sync capability built and I can adjust the delay.

I'll try to find some articles on it. I searched for it awhile ago when I was having the problem. I came across this article while I was searching for something else and wanted to share my experience with it.
 

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