Don't Qualify for VA Benefits, Ouch! (1 Viewer)

[Jeff Gatie]

Not to mention the headline on the various news channels last night that border police are finding more and more "persons of interests", some with definitive ties to Al-Quaida, assimilating among the populations to the US south and then paying very high priced coyotes ($30,000 - $50,000 a shot) to sneak them across the border so they may . . . uhhh, well I guess they just want a job at Wall-Mart or something so they can have a better future. At least that's what people tell me.

 

[Chu Gai]

I don't mind immigration...legal that is. If the country needs less skilled labor, more skilled labor, then there needs to be sensible ways to bring it into the country so that the immigrants are properly accounted for and for better or worse, integrated into the American society so that they become Americans. While I have all the sympathy in the world for people looking to find any means possible to make things better for themselves, I'm also not very interested in being the solution for another country's utter mismanagement of its own affairs whether it be economic, political, birthrate, education or whatever.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Well, said. Agree on all counts.

 

[Chu Gai]

To the original poster, have you visited your local American Legion to talk to people there? There may be other avenues they're familiar with that you haven't explored.

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

So you are opposed to the way your country was founded?

It is easy to forget that all the priviledges we enjoy in the western world are because we are able to exploit workers in other countries whose standard of living is far lower than our own. The day that workers in less developed countries are paid the same as American/European workers is the day that we in the west lower our standard of living considerably, as we won't be able to afford all the things we now take for granted. No more $50 DVD players, no more $100 shoes. Our ability to afford our luxuries is reliant on others making next to nothing to produce them, so I can't begrudge someone who wants to live on the receiving end instead of suffering so we can enjoy the fruits of their labor cheaply.

As for supporting vets, I believe that the commitment to serve one's country should be reciprocated. There is no amount of money that can make up for what those in combat have to witness and endure.

 

[Chu Gai]

The history was ugly. It wasn't much better for the natives in Mexico either. Zimbabwe used to be an exporter and a country on its way to prosperity and a better standard of living for its citizens. Until that is Mugabe took hold and plunged the country into ruin. BTW, how do you like Mexico's immigration policy?

 

[ChristopherDAC]

This is believed by a lot of people, but it's also not true. Bluntly put, the arrival of industrial techniques makes possible production of necessities and luxuries with far less cost in labour and resources than the old, inefficient ways of doing things. Unfortunately, our economic systems haven't adjusted to this fact. We could all have the 8-hour workweek, if it weren't that most of the work being done is either redundant, unnecessary, or actually harmful to the quality of life. You notice that there are plenty of telemarketers, and very few gasoline-station attendants!

 

[Jeff Gatie]

What about those who were not in combat?

 

[dany]

Its the one we should use but i heard the ACLU would be against it.

 

[dany]

We pay for the priviledges and those as you call exploit are moving up the money class because of it.

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

You are completely missing the point, which is that if workers the world over made the same wage for the same work, our standard of living would be much lower due to the magnitude of the increase in the costs of everything we consume. Sure, there are benefits to those who get jobs as a result of foreign employment, but it is naive to think that workers who have to put up with conditions and wages we would not find acceptable are not being taken advantage of for our benefit. If they weren't, and were so happy with their predicament, why would anyone want to come here?

 

[Chu Gai]

They can go to France.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Interesting. So you think if all Americans were confronted with the situation of living in a poverty stricken area and their families were on the brink of starvation, they would not get a job because the wages and conditions are better in another country? Wow!!! This USA thing must be great if people would rather starve than work. Trust me, if Russia finds a miraculous new economic system that creates a better standard of living and better wages for their populace, Americans are not going to strike en masse simply because through no fault of their own (except self-sufficiency), they are now "exploited". You are still thinking this is a "zero sum game" Jeff. It's not, which is why most ideologies based on the "zero sum game" (see Russia'a last "miracle" economic system ) are failures and result in mass poverty and stagnation. After all, if your economic system has a core belief that there is no way to increase wealth without stealing it, that is usually exactly what happens.

As far as why people want to come here? Because their own countries suck, that's why. You have only to look to Mexico, with almost as many natural resources as the US, plus a wealth of oil and tourism, to see a country which truly, truly "exploits" it's people. They could have a system near to ours, but they are more concerned with corruption and power, something which we have, but not to the point of Mexico. Mexico could be rich, they just don't know how (and almost electing a socialist is definitely not how).

 

[dany]

Nobody saw 30 days where a guy went to Pakistan to see why our computer jobs are going there? They were happy as hell to have them.

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

Quit trying to put words in my mouth. Did I say these people did not want to work, or would choose starvation over working for peanuts in unsafe environments? No. Does that mean they deserve to live near starvation so we can afford to buy the goods they produce? No. We are exploiting their misfortune for our comfort and properity.

Are you trying to argue that if workers who are now being paid less than a dollar a day were being paid the equivalent of what an American made for the same work, and working under the same conditions and with the same benefits, that Americans would be able to afford the goods being produced?

Yes, their countries suck, and I'm not taking blame away from their corrupt governments or their own ability to reform their situations, but I still say that it is not in our interest for any of these conditions to change. We need to be able to exploit others to maintain our way of life, and our standard of living.

 

[Holadem]

Where is this middle class you speak off? Western companies operating in the Third World often supply jobs whose wages do not allow anyone to rise above the poverty line, or else the word "sweatshop" would not exist. The absence of tight regulation (minimum wages) in such countries enables business to pretty much do whatever they want.

You know, it's difficult to argue that a 12 y/o girl working 16h days in a Nike factory is better off than the alternative life of prostitution she would have had. But really, is it to much to ask that businesses treat foreigners with the same decency (ha!) they afford to citizens of their countries of origin?

And before anyone tells me that it's incumbent upon the local population to change the regime which allows such abuses to take place, well, it's kinda difficult to do when such regimes are often supported, or at the very least tacitly endorsed by the Powers That Be, regardless of ideology (while regalling everyone and would listen and many who wouldn't with tales of ideological and moral superiority in the form of democracy and freedom).

YAY FOR DEMOCRACY!

(well, so long as it does not stand in the way of our business interests).

Can't blame them for wanting a piece of the pie...

--
H

 

[Rain]

Caveat Emptor

 

[Chu Gai]

Where is the blame that their governments have? I don't think the companies that we outsource computer and IT work have employees that are living near the poverty line. Also many of the factories in places like China are incredibly modern and use a paucity of workers enabling lower costs. Me, I used to feel sorry for the people and had some guilt over it. But the more I look at their governments and what they're doing to improve the lot of people in the countries, the more I've come to the position that the dollars we spent would be better spent in installing new governments. Next time a country forfeits on their loan, I'm gonna call the repo man.

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

Considering how much the US owes and its current trade deficits, you had better hope no one else has the same idea.

 

[Jeff Gatie]

Again with the "zero sum game". In order to be prosperous and privileged, we have to be "exploiting" the poor. How about the fact that they are poor is due to the corruption of their evil governments and the "fact" they are "exploited" is a technique of their government to help stave off the blame for their corruption.

Look at it this way, African-Americans were exploited and oppressed in this country for a long time. Now, were they oppressed due to the vast chasm in wealth distribution and exploited by corporations who took advantage of them or was the vast chasm of wealth and the exploitation due to an evil system that perpetuated racism and exploitation in order to consolidate power? Were the corporations evil or was the system evil? Did the corporations suddenly become non-evil or was the system brought down? Where was the money "stolen" from which allowed the formerly exploited class to increase their standard of living?

Discuss.