Don't blame J6P or video stores for carrying P&S only DVD's! (1 Viewer)

[Alex Shk]

I find it naive to expect the studios to educate their consumers. Since the 1950's the studio's have constantly tried to differentiate their product from television. Stereo sound, widescreen, 3D, surround sound - all efforts to make the theater experience unique from the home experience. Even home video, with it's crappy sound and low resolution picture, was little threat to a theatrical presentation.
If I recall correctly, the studios were quite hesitant in adopting the DVD format. The focus of their concerns was copy protection, but I always felt the ability of DVD to recreate the sonic theatrical experience, and offer resolution that (at very least) utilizes the full capabilities of 4:3 sets, threatens their primary distribution of product. The fact the public is asking for (essentially) edited (P&S) versions of their product, once again guarantees that they are not giving away the store. The widescreen support from industry insiders that are members of this board is encouraging, however MOST of those insiders are responsible for the artistic or technological content of those discs - they are not the bean counters or CEO's that make the final say.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is all tied in to the lack of non-HDTV widescreen sets in the US. Such displays are available in foreign markets with only marginal price mark-up's from their 4:3 cousins. In the US, widescreen HDTV displays seem to start around the $2000 mark.
What is the answer? Create the demand for widescreen displays prior to the arrival of HDTV. Market them at reasonable prices. Just don't expect the studios to educate. They will probably spearhead P&S of 2:35 aspect ratio films after 16:9 displays become the norm.
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[Inspector Hammer!]

Alex, my message to the studios is, either get behind dvd, COMPLETLY, or get lost. Either support OAR ON EVERY TITLE, or you don't get my business, and I will make damn sure that they don't get any of my friends and families business either. What some of them are doing right now is nothing short of cruel! They launch a format aimed squarly at us, the HT crowd the ones that supported LD, give us all these titles in OAR for 4 years, and then, what, now they're just going to say screw you, we don't need you anymore and take that all away!? UNACCEPTABLE!
Now, i'll admit, i'm still a bit hazy on this whole HD issue, but I see things the way I see things, and your right, the studios probably won't try to educate, and THAT'S what I find so depressing here. But why is it naive to expect them to at least try, Fox did it with Die Hard. My request is a simple one to the studios, put a short example on their dvd's, get rid of some stupid extra that we don't need, and use that space for this purpose. I don't find that so difficult.
Now Alex, clear this up for me, are you saying that DVD is some sort of threat to the theater industry? That by supporting OAR at home on a mid resolution medium like dvd, people will stop going to the movies? I really wouldn't worry about that, if that's what you were saying.
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To the men and women of the N.Y. police and fire department
God bless you.
To the victims and their families
God keep you.
To the dirtbags who caused all this
God help you!!!
[Edited last by John Williamson on November 10, 2001 at 09:45 AM]

 

[Duane Robinson]

Hell I know it's true for me. Since I got my dvd player in 1998 my theater attendance has dropped drastically each additional year I own a player, buy more dvds, and upgrade my equipment. Now I only go to the movies for films that I find really interesting or event films like Star Wars. And I know I am not the only one doing this because of the ridiculous prices, crappy presentation, and annoying crowds. You better believe that they are scared to fully support dvd.
They fear the consumers' ability to closely recreate the theatrical experience in the comfort of their own homes and with the added benefit of owning a movie and being able to watch it as much as they want without having to continue paying them after the intial purchase. Studios need a reason to differentiate the home video market from the theatrical experience. And with the decline in the presentation of films at theaters dvd seems to be a near perfect alternative for a lot of people. Although a lot of HT buffs still go to the theater a lot of the people I know who are into HT are staying home more often than they used to.
Pan and scam ensures that people who don't care that much about film will still provide the studios with double revenue. They'll buy the pan and scam version of a film they saw in the theaters and watch it and be satisfied, but they will think that they are watching TV instead of trying to recreate the theatrical experience. Then the next weekend they will go to the theater to watch a next movie that for some strange reason looks different than what they have available at home and continue down that street until they are educated.
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"I'd rather have 2 girls at 21 than 1 girl at 42." - W.C. Fields
"One man's simple is another man's huh." - David Stone
"I don't drink much. Just when I'm with other people, or by myself." - Some random geezer

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

That makes no sense. So what your saying is, that the studios are slowly turning dvd pan n scan so people will continue to go to theaters!? What makes them think that? Joe/Jane sixpack don't even know that they will get something different at the theater, you think they will say to themselves "Gee, I guess I have to go to the theater if I want to see this film in widescreen!"
They don't know, or care what widescreen is, as far as their concerned, they will be getting the same pan n scan presentaion at the theater, so why would the studios believe that by withholding OAR on dvd, this will compell Joe/Jane to go the movies?
Your friends don't go to the movies anymore because they KNOW that dvd's in OAR will be the same as if they had went to the movies.
Just to simplify what I just said, take any random Joe/Jane, take them to the theater to see 'EP I The Phantom Menace' in it's OAR of 2.35:1 on a HUGE 50 ft screen, now, after the screening, wait a few hours, and then show them a pan n scan version of that film, THEY WILL NOT NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE.
So why would the studos think that Joe/Jane would make the concious decision to go to the movies to see 'EP I' because they fear it will be panned n scanned on dvd?
They don't know and/or care. Pan n scan, OAR, they don't see the differnce.
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To the men and women of the N.Y. police and fire department
God bless you.
To the victims and their families
God keep you.
To the dirtbags who caused all this
God help you!!!

 

[Glenn Overholt]

It is the studios. They could fix it, but they don't want to. They will have the pleasure when 'Joe' gets his widescreen TV and figures out that all of his P&S DVD's look really bad now, and have to be replaced. He isn't stupid, just ignorant.
I don't think that copying DVD's is an issue. The studios were worried about that when VHS hit the market, and macrovision has taken care of that. They have made much more having us see the movie and then buying it later.
Bottom line. Educating Joe is going to be very difficult. It will take decades at the rate we're going. Unless something radical happens, I think our only resort is to repeat the 'Wonka' campaign for the next P&S only DVD that comes out.
Hopefully, it will work again. We are just going to have to keep on pestering them until they get the idea that if they do issue a P&S only version, they are going to hear from us.
Glenn

 

[Adam_S]

What we need is a WIDEspread declaration of beliefs. Send it to every major DVD site, ask them to give it a place on the front page and a nice writeup, campaign on the dvd forums, get people to sign it put links in signatures etc. Then after we've had thousands and thousands sign it, Print outs and mailing to the studios and DVD Consortium/forum.
That's what we do to get their attention, "We will not go quietly into the night!"
unfortunately someone would have to spearhead this, and being a poor idealistic student I have neither the money or especially the time to oversee it, not that it will ever get done anyway, people will talk about how it's a wonderful idea, and then do nothing. In a way that makes us worse than Joe/Jane Sixpack because at least they'll take the initive to complain and take back their widescreen dvds whereas all we do is sit around on our butts crying on the sympathetic shoulders here at HTF.
As for the acutal Declaration or beliegs here's a brief example of what i had in mind.
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We the film-lovers of the countries of the world, in order to form a more perfect dvd, do set forth this document to declare that all dvds should be created equal, that they should be endowed by their creators with certain unalienable rights, among these are Original Aspect Ratio, Original Soundtrack, and the pursuit of quality extras.
When in a time of grievance it has come to our attention that the rights of dvds are being abused. The dvd creators have been creating dvds not in their original aspect ratio, not with their original soundtracks, and not with quality extra features. We therefore declare that we will not accept a dvd of a film that does not include it's original aspect ratio. The "panandscan"ing of films wider than the ratio or 1.33:1 is never acceptable, and in the future neither the vertical "panandscann"ing of films with an aspect ratio less than 1.78:1 will be acceptable nor will the horizontal "panandscan"ing of films with an aspect ratio of 1.78:1 be acceptable.
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and so on and so forth
just another random 2 am musing
Adam

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

Glenn, I hear ya, we'll just have to keep fighting.
I say, whatever we come up with, no matter how crazy it might seem, to try to halt or at least slow the progression of pan n scan and open matte dvd's, DO IT!
At this point, we have nothing to lose, and EVERYTHING to gain!
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To the men and women of the N.Y. police and fire department
God bless you.
To the victims and their families
God keep you.
To the dirtbags who caused all this
God help you!!!
[Edited last by John Williamson on November 11, 2001 at 01:37 AM]

 

[Brian Harnish]

It is particularly frustrating that we're being given the shove while Joe and Jane SixPack are getting the royal treatment. All of the suggestions above are very good, and I would like to see the studios/retail outlets implement them.
I would really love to see retail chains like Wal*Mart and BB implement a return policy on DVDs that goes something like this: "Widescreen DVDs are not defective and therefore cannot be returned (unless a malfunction occurs on the disc). That is the normal way the picture is supposed to be viewed on your screen. For a return on a defective disc, we require that you include the exact timestamp where the error on the DVD occurs. Then, we will actually test it on our equipment before processing the return. Please sign here indicating that you understand, accept, and have read our return policy: ___________."
Why is Wal*Mart/BB/etc. accepting these returns anyways? Since the DVDs are not defective, then under the return policy (if the DVDs themselves are open) they should not allow the returns. Are stores really not following their own policies? If so, then they need to fire some people in the customer service department.
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- Brian
My DVD Collection
Want Sliders on DVD? Then please SIGN the petition!

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

Brian, I have no idea what those stores are doing, and I don't even think THEY know what they're doing half the time, but I love your return policy idea!

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To the men and women of the N.Y. police and fire department
God bless you.
To the victims and their families
God keep you.
To the dirtbags who caused all this
God help you!!!
[Edited last by John Williamson on November 11, 2001 at 02:04 AM]

 

[Alex Shk]

quote: I would really love to see retail chains like Wal*Mart and BB implement a return policy on DVDs that goes something like this: "Widescreen DVDs are not defective and therefore cannot be returned [/quote]
I hope I never accidently pick up a Pan & Scan version of a film from one of these retailers....
quote: So what your saying is, that the studios are slowly turning dvd pan n scan so people will continue to go to theaters!? [/quote]
No, I don't think they are DOING it. They are reacting to the mass market (remember 2 years ago the mass market for DVD's was largely OAR). It's just that, in this case, the market trend gives them an additional benefit.
Two thoughts on the advantages for the studios if releases are OAR:
1. Maybe OAR won't keep patrons away from the newest blockbuster, but it may reduce interest in a theatrical re-release of a classic title. Re-issuing an "old warhorse" used to be a nifty way for the studios to generate revenue in a year that saw one of their major titles flop. Granted, this is an older business model - but why would they give up the option?
2. They will get to sell "widescreen" versions of the same features again when widescreen becomes the standard.
One last thought: More often than not, when I am explaining the differences between P&S and OAR to Joe n' Jane, I find that they ALREADY KNOW THIS. Sadly, THEY JUST DON'T CARE. What they want is a home entertainment display in which every available pixel is being used to produce the picture. I still say an industry push for widescreen displays will slightly alleviate this problem.
Slightly.
Because I wasn't kidding before - they will then P & S 2:35 down to 16:9.
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[Edited last by Alex Shk on November 11, 2001 at 07:23 AM]

 

[David Lambert]

Because I wasn't kidding before - they will then P & S 2:35 down to 16:9.

Maybe not. Not as long as "Zoom" and "Fill" functions exist on the new TV's.
Grin, duck, and run
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DAVE/Memphis

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