Donner Superman 2 SE (merged thread) (1 Viewer)

[Paul_Scott]

matthew, i dont agree with your tjoughts on the snow hitchhiking scene.
the whole scene is proposterous to start with because he is now a normal human and he has somehow been able to walk from the fortress of solitude to who knows were he is.

the problem I've always had with SII is that it has always been preposterous, even within it own universe.
So many of the plot points are groan inducing, of which the walk back fortress (and by implication, the fact that Lois and Clark walked out of fortress and found a car with relative ease it seems) is but one element.
If people thought that the original was 'good' up until it got to Metropolis where it got a little silly- then the continuation in the second movie continues in that same vein and compounds the problems quite a bit in nearly every scene. From the fed prision escape to the talking on the moon, to the way they get out of the fortress, to mastermind Luthor not taking any insurance when he aligns himself with the other three villans...the film is just one long string of contrived sequences after another.
Donners material is interesting to see, and I think its usually better- but the problems I have with either version are conceptual. Its rotten at the foundation.
Sensational premise- but the plot points along the way are very problematical, unless you are prepared to check your brain at the door.

 

[Ben J Loews]

I always liked this poster, so I made my own cover art, its only a 10 minute paintshop job, but I think its better than the current Donner Cut.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

I always liked this poster, so I made my own cover art, its only a 10 minute paintshop job, but I think its better than the current Donner Cut.

Very cool poster - never seen that one! Thanks!

 

[Ben J Loews]

Very cool poster - never seen that one! Thanks!

No problem!
The only changes I made was I removed the credits from the bottom, the series of 5 photos and the "tagline" at the top. Then just increased the contrast of the "Superman II" text, as it looked a bit 'flat' and lacking, erm, contrast, oddly...
Regarding the Donner Cut, I wished they would have included 3 scenes I know exist:
-Villians outside the fortress (on the disk - deleted scene)
-Luther begs Superman in the fortress (extended TV scene)
-Clark and Jimmy with his new camera (on the disk - deleted scene)
Another scene which I *think* might have been cool to include would have been the Concorde deleted scene from S:TMP, though its inclusion would have only really made sense just before Superman shows up at the Daily Planet (before the Metropolis battle).
I'm sure both Thau and Donner have their reasons for deleting them, though I think the film would have benefitted from their inclusions, if only to pad out the (already thin) running time.
As I have said before, I hope that this project can be revisited at some point, and re-evaluated (hopefully with a bigger budget) as I think its an important piece of world cinema, that should be fulfilled to as full a conclusion as possible within the restrictions of what footage was shot, and what can be done to restore the original intent / vision.

 

[BrettGallman]

I'd also like to add that it's always seemed pretty harsh that Lois wasn't willing to give him a lift back to the FOS, as absurd as that sounds.

I'm actually glad Donner left the Arctic Police scene out of his cut. I kind of wished it were still there the first time I watched it, but it is kind of ridiculous. As Paul (and others) have pointed out, the Donner cut still is not a perfect film by any means. I used to absolutely love it when I was a kid, but it doesn't hold up as well now. I can still watch it, but some of the more ludicrous plot points stick out more now (especially the prison escape).

 

[Ben J Loews]

I'd also like to add that it's always seemed pretty harsh that Lois wasn't willing to give him a lift back to the FOS, as absurd as that sounds.

I just took that as Clark was either too proud or too hurt to even ask for a lift, in discrace with his conscience in turmoil...

 

[Tim L]

this always confused me about the diner guy-if he turned back time-then the guy at the diner never put the hurt on old supes..right? so when he walks in and fights the guy and says 'I've been working out"-it seems the people in the diner saw him before-hence the original fight took place and they all remember it. Am I missing something? (I'm sure I am)

Tim

 

[TonyD]

i didnt see it that way.
to me i saw it that the diner people saw a guy
who wasnt so impressive looking
come in and give bully guy a beating, they were just surprised is all.

 

[Ben J Loews]

One question about the ending;

How come according to Donner the original ending to SII was Lois dieing in the Fortress of Solitude, then Superman turning back time to rescue her.

In which case, why wasn't this filmed, as its not what Donner shot in the end, (as she survives obviously) yet he did shoot the turn back time element... im confused.

 

[AaronMan]

Concerning the diner fight at the end, I too thought this didn't make any sense. He turned back time, essentially to the beginning of the film, which kind of made the entire film pointless. I mean, Superman erases the whole freaking movie with his time traveling stunt, but that is another mess.

He turned back time, so the original diner fight with Kent losing didn't ever happen, right? So when Kent shows up again, everyone in the diner seems to anticipate what is about to happen--Kent is about to exact some revenge on the trucker. Even the owner says something like, "I just got done repairing this place!" For me, I was like, "Huh?" Why did Donner keep this in there? It makes no sense at all. I listened to the commentary on that scene, but they don't mention it as they are talking about something else.

All in all, the overall tone was great. but there are a few "Huh?" moments in there.

 

[KyleK]

It actually occured to me as I was watching the movie: why not just leave both "endings" out, and end the movie with Lois knowing Superman's identity? As it stands, both endings are unsatisfactory, and it could make the Donner ending much more poignant. In any case it would be better than the pointless do-over that occurs in both films.

 

[TheBat]

if you really want a headache about the time travel thing.. how could lois be pregnant? if superman did the the time warp?
Jacob

 

[AlexCosmo]

I totally agree about leaving the ending open. They really should have at least presented that as an option. Turning back the world really hurts the Donner cut (which is pretty great otherwise).

 

[AaronMan]

Yeah Jacob, thats what I'm saying. He literally rewinds the movie all the way to the beginning. Kind of stupid.

 

[Richard Kim]

I think I mentioned this before in this thread, but the time warp ending also undoes the destruction of the Fortress of Solitude as well as the death of Jor-El, which totally undermines the sacrifice he makes for his son.

 

[Gary Seven]

I think you have to simply "go with it". Keep in mind that in reality, both films are not what they were meant to be. The second movie (Donner cut) particularly. In the first, it is stated profusely that "it is forbidden to interfere with human history". Unfortunately, the consequences are never brought forth probably because Donner never got to complete the films they way he originally intended. I'm sure had things panned out as he planned, the ramifications would have surfaced... perhaps in Superman III. Speculation on my part of course.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Even if some of the things in the Donner cut of II don't logically fit together, I think there's an emotional truth to this version that outweighs the story points that don't always fit together as well as they should. The new Kal-El/Jor-El scenes were powerful enough (in my view) to carry the entire film.
I know it's not a great response, but I think sometimes it is best to try to ignore the faults and go with it as best you can. I've always had a real problem with the turning back time ending (ever since I saw S:TM when I was a kid), and that hasn't changed - there's nothing in the film's logic that allows me to believe that this is really one of Superman's powers. I never had a problem believing that a man could fly (or shoot lasers out of his eyes or have incredible strength), but turning back time doesn't really fit in with that. If Superman can turn back time, why wouldn't that be something he regularly did to undo all misdeeds? And when he turns back time, then what? Wouldn't the Clark Kent/Superman from the date time was reversed to still be there, so wouldn't there now be two Supermans? And if time was reversed, then the bad things that prompted Superman to turn back time in the first place wouldn't have happened, so he wouldn't have existed to turn back time and prevent the bad thing from happening, and then...
You can totally waste an afternoon thinking about such things. I prefer to shrug my shoulders and enjoy the other 95% of the movie. YMMV.

 

[AaronMan]

The time travel stunt just seemed like the biggest and most obvious example of a deus ex machina I've ever seen.

 

[TheBat]

now that its been a few months since release? any changes in attitude towards the movie? good, bad or ugly?
Jacob

 

[David Deeb]

The whole "Richard Donner cut" is itself a sort of time travel stunt by trying to turn back the world.

While I enjoyed watching the Donner cut once, I'll stick with the original. "It is forbidden to interfere with human history" and that means Superman II is the official film.