Dollhouse - season 2 (1 Viewer)

[Adam Lenhardt]

I really liked the finale, and I was glad that we got to see what happened after "Epitaph One", but I think the final few episodes needed three or four more hours to give the important moments room to breathe and adequate time to impact. Two or three hours more in the present, and another hour for "Epitaph Two".

 

[Lou Sytsma]

Gawd Eliza cannot do emotional stuff at all - the girl that played Caroline has more range than her. It is hilariously pathetic to watch, especially when compared against the other actors - each of which had similar moments - the first half hour was terrible, the second half tolerable with some great moments but overall not very good - rushed like hell to finish off.

Hated, hated, hated what they did to the Alpha character - almost as bad as making Darth Vader a momma's boy.

Because we were told and not shown how the characters got to where they were from the previous episode - so no empathy when they come back or make their big life changing moment.

The last two episodes left a terrible after taste.

 

[Mikah Cerucco]

I didn't much like anything having to do with the apocalyptic tone of Epitah One and Epitah Two, but I'm glad Fox allowed an ending. I never tuned into Dollhouse to watch a version of Mad Max. For whatever reason, I love a disaster theme (2012, etc.) but I'm never really drawn into a post-apocalyptic one (The Postman, Waterworld, Mad Max). The later episodes of Dollhouse were must see TV for me, but not Epitah One and Two.

 

[Joe_H]

Just out of curiosity, because it seemed off to me: Was it intentional how suddenly the end cut to the "Mutant Enemy" screen without even fading to black first, or did the local Fox cut a few seconds off of it here?

It was just mid song, and then all of a sudden that came up, it seemed like the latter. No big deal to me though, just wondering.

I agree that maybe 3 or 4 more hours would've been nice to tell the story in, but they definitely did the best with what they had to work with, I think.

 

[TravisR]

Originally Posted by Joe_H

Just out of curiosity, because it seemed off to me: Was it intentional how suddenly the end cut to the "Mutant Enemy" screen without even fading to black first, or did the local Fox cut a few seconds off of it here?

I'm only venturing a guess but I figure they probably had to cut alot of stuff to make the running time so a graceful fade had to get dropped because every second counted.

 

[Joe_H]

I figured as much but wasn't sure if it was a local thing or not, thanks.

 

[Citizen87645]

Yeah, it was just a fade to black from where it got cut off. I checked on Hulu this morning.

 

[RobertW]

So that's why when I watched this episode, I felt like I'd missed one. Totally lost me. I'll have to watch that tomorrow, and then the finale again.

Amazing just how good this show got once they new they had a finite end, and could plot accordingly. The first season, "Echo character of the week" was pretty underwhelming all in all. But this season's story arc has been just incredible, kind of what we expected from Joss, and if the series had been this good all along, it might not have suffered the axe as it did. Then again, if it hadn't gotten the axe, we might not have had this season.

Originally Posted by Adam Lenhardt ">[/url]


"Epitaph One" was the unaired season one finale, which takes place several years in the future; exactly how many is left unclear. It was first made available on the Season One DVD set. If you don't mind low quality, you can [url=http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewTVSeason?id=303019310&s=143441&showLC=true]download it in HD from iTunes[/url] (listed as the thirteenth episode). The season/series finale is entitled "Epitaph Two: Return", which sounds like it will pick up where "Epitaph One" left off.

[/QUOTE]

 

[RobertW]

Of the actives, I think Enver Gjokaj is far and away the most successful.

Drop dead perfect as Topher. Absolutely nailed it.

 

[NeilO]

Originally Posted by RobertW

Of the actives, I think Enver Gjokaj is far and away the most successful.

Drop dead perfect as Topher. Absolutely nailed it.

I finally got around to watching the last few episodes. I was quite amazed at how well he played Topher.

The whole Boyd revelation was quite a shocker. I did wonder whether he had a backup of himself somewhere. You'd think he would. I presume that the first minute of scenes flashing by in Epitaph 2 was a quick summary of what happened in Epitaph 1.

One thing that was bugging me in the back of my mind - did we every find out who put that extra programming in Echo and Mellie that gave Paul Ballard messages in Season 1? Was that explained at some point?

 

[DaveF]

My turn to resurrect ghosts of TV past I finished watching S2 of Dollhouse (Blu-ray) last week. My wife wanted to buy Dollhouse S1 -- I was skeptical given its bad reviews and TV failure -- but we bought it on sale last year. Turned out to be fun, so we got S2 and got around to it this Spring.


I was quite surprised by the show; it was good. Sometimes very good. It might play better on disc since you can watch the arc in compressed fashion instead of struggling to keep it in your mind as 13 episodes play out over six or more months, with football interruptions, holiday breaks, and so. I guess I'll go back and start reading through the threads to see how it was (un)appreciated at the time.


(And now we're watching Firefly; first time for me. So far, I prefer Dollhouse to Firefly.)

 

[TravisR]

So far, I prefer Dollhouse to Firefly.

Me too. And now neither of us can show our faces on the internet ever again.

 

[NeilO]

Originally Posted by TravisR Sacrilege.


By the way, [url=http://www.darkhorse.com/Blog/310/welcome-dollhouse]Dark Horse Comics put out a one-shot comics in the post-apocalyptic scenario and is now putting out a mini-series.

 

[mattCR]

It's OK. I prefer Firefly, which I thought had one of the best real Sci-Fi concepts that emphasized the science for once.


That having been said, I thought the CONCEPT for Dollhouse was great. I thought where they went with it in the second season was really good. The problem with Dollhouse was Dushku. I don't think she had enough weight to carry the role. I think if this was a different actress where they could have played up the changes. Really, if I could go back and redo this, while "on paper" it would have been riskier, if you had cast Amy Acker in the role that Dushku had, as her acting chops would have opened that role up to a lot of different possibilities.


But I liked the concept a good deal.

Originally Posted by DaveF

My turn to resurrect ghosts of TV past I finished watching S2 of Dollhouse (Blu-ray) last week. My wife wanted to buy Dollhouse S1 -- I was skeptical given its bad reviews and TV failure -- but we bought it on sale last year. Turned out to be fun, so we got S2 and got around to it this Spring.


I was quite surprised by the show; it was good. Sometimes very good. It might play better on disc since you can watch the arc in compressed fashion instead of struggling to keep it in your mind as 13 episodes play out over six or more months, with football interruptions, holiday breaks, and so. I guess I'll go back and start reading through the threads to see how it was (un)appreciated at the time.


(And now we're watching Firefly; first time for me. So far, I prefer Dollhouse to Firefly.)

 

[DaveF]

My complaints are not with the execution but with the internal logic problems. The Dollhouse was a wholly implausible construct; it wasn't self-consistent. The idea that this uber-secret organization that sold the services of imprinted people to the uber elite...like "Mark Zuckerberg" (or the show's equivalent net-celeb)? Sold them globally? And yet it was completely hidden from the public? It was preposterous in a way that was breaking through the suspension of disbelief in the second season. Worse, the services made no sense to the rational buyer. Hire a hooker and only she knows of your infidelities. Hire a doll and your deviancy is forever known and preserved by a global shadow organization: and if they have no moral compunction against human slavery then they won't bat an eye at using your secrets against you.


Also, in 2011, after billion- and trillion-dollar shenanigans of Wall Street (e.g. a collapsing AIG nearly destroying the world economy, Goldman Sachs helping Greece hide its actual debt from the EU), it's increasingly hard to take seriously this sort of story of a mid-size bio-tech company as a global threat. The scale of real global dangers is so vastly greater that the Dollhouse is almost cute in comparison.


But then that's why I ultimately liked S2 alot: as it moved away from Dolls as actives and towards the apocalpytic vision introduced as S1's epilogue, it brought back a real sense of danger and import. The idea that a mid-size outfit like Dollhouse might inadvertently unleash a global pandemic is (as these things go) believeable and frightening.




I enjoyed all the actors and actresses. I have no issues with Dushku. Perhaps Acker would have been a stronger lead -- I like her -- but as much as Joss is all for women's issues, he knows the TV reality that curves sell shows, and Acker is too skinny to lead a show with such emphasis on seduction and sensuality.


For me, the top performance was Victor as Topher. It was so dead-on, it was unsettling.



[As for Firefly: I'm 5 eps in. Will see how it plays out.]

 

[mattCR]

You made me go back and watch a lot of this today; you know, the thing is, I thought the core concept of Dollhouse got to it's point in the episode were it was pressed like "everlasting life" and I said so early in this thread. I think that's where it was always heading, whether or not the "super elite" or whatever were willing to hide away a major secret where they could take over someone's body and continue to live on, cheating death.


That concept got close a few times, which would have justified the elites keeping it secret if they all felt it was moving that way, and their only way to get a second chance body was through this.. but they kept wanting to get away.

But I think you miss the "mid-size biotech" .. they tell you pretty point blank in Season 2 as the senator begins his investigation that the Rossum Corporation is the largest biotech company in the world, and he presses them to show their hands as to whether or not they've used pressure and money to buy politicians, etc.. so they were never a "mid level" company, and I can't think of an episode where they were played that way...

Originally Posted by DaveF

My complaints are not with the execution but with the internal logic problems. The Dollhouse was a wholly implausible construct; it wasn't self-consistent. The idea that this uber-secret organization that sold the services of imprinted people to the uber elite...like "Mark Zuckerberg" (or the show's equivalent net-celeb)? Sold them globally? And yet it was completely hidden from the public? It was preposterous in a way that was breaking through the suspension of disbelief in the second season. Worse, the services made no sense to the rational buyer. Hire a hooker and only she knows of your infidelities. Hire a doll and your deviancy is forever known and preserved by a global shadow organization: and if they have no moral compunction against human slavery then they won't bat an eye at using your secrets against you.


Also, in 2011, after billion- and trillion-dollar shenanigans of Wall Street (e.g. a collapsing AIG nearly destroying the world economy, Goldman Sachs helping Greece hide its actual debt from the EU), it's increasingly hard to take seriously this sort of story of a mid-size bio-tech company as a global threat. The scale of real global dangers is so vastly greater that the Dollhouse is almost cute in comparison.

 

[DaveF]

But I think you miss the "mid-size biotech" .. they tell you pretty point blank in Season 2 as the senator begins his investigation that the Rossum Corporation is the largest biotech company in the world, and he presses them to show their hands as to whether or not they've used pressure and money to buy politicians, etc.. so they were never a "mid level" company, and I can't think of an episode where they were played that way...

You're right, that had sublimated out of my brain And any company that can create its own Senator is a force to be reckoned with. But IMO, as James Bond and Tom Clancy had to shift villains after the fall of the USSR and the rise of the non-state terrorist, so I think the view of globally-destructive corporate villains will shift following the Great Recession.

Originally Posted by mattCR

You made me go back and watch a lot of this today; you know, the thing is, I thought the core concept of Dollhouse got to it's point in the episode were it was pressed like "everlasting life" and I said so early in this thread. I think that's where it was always heading, whether or not the "super elite" or whatever were willing to hide away a major secret where they could take over someone's body and continue to live on, cheating death.


That concept got close a few times, which would have justified the elites keeping it secret if they all felt it was moving that way, and their only way to get a second chance body was through this.. but they kept wanting to get away.

Eternal Life was dealt with most directly with Rossum, in Epilogue 2. It was an developing as an important storyline.


But I think the core theme was -- just like in "Dark City" -- the question of what makes us human? Dollhouse and Dark City ask the same question: Are we more than the jumble of memories stored in our brains? Is there something more deeply human than what's imprinted into our gray matter? And both stories have that most-human of humans, who rises above and out of the repeated memory imprints and leads others to escape and again become human themselves.



I really did like Dollhouse. It wasn't perfect, and I can see why it wasn't well received. But I love these stories that consider what's real and whether we can grab hold of it.



Also: if you've not watched the disc release: there's a passing comment that it was e203 that "killed" the show -- the sociopath who abducted women and posed them as his family in "living" dioramas. The inference was that episode was so off-putting to the general viewership that it killed interest and ratings and remaining network support.


Similarly, for those that haven't seen them, Epilogue 1 (S1 disc set) and Epilogue 2 (S2 disc set) are must see.

 

[DaveF]

But I think you miss the "mid-size biotech" .. they tell you pretty point blank in Season 2 as the senator begins his investigation that the Rossum Corporation is the largest biotech company in the world, and he presses them to show their hands as to whether or not they've used pressure and money to buy politicians, etc.. so they were never a "mid level" company, and I can't think of an episode where they were played that way...

You're right, that had sublimated out of my brain And any company that can create its own Senator is a force to be reckoned with. But IMO, as James Bond and Tom Clancy had to shift villains after the fall of the USSR and the rise of the non-state terrorist, so I think the view of globally-destructive corporate villains will shift following the Great Recession.

Originally Posted by mattCR

You made me go back and watch a lot of this today; you know, the thing is, I thought the core concept of Dollhouse got to it's point in the episode were it was pressed like "everlasting life" and I said so early in this thread. I think that's where it was always heading, whether or not the "super elite" or whatever were willing to hide away a major secret where they could take over someone's body and continue to live on, cheating death.


That concept got close a few times, which would have justified the elites keeping it secret if they all felt it was moving that way, and their only way to get a second chance body was through this.. but they kept wanting to get away.

Eternal Life was dealt with most directly with Rossum, in Epilogue 2. It was an important plot device at the end.


But I think the core theme was -- just like in "Dark City" -- the question of what makes us human? Dollhouse and Dark City ask the same question: Are we more than the jumble of memories stored in our brains? Is there something more deeply human than what's imprinted into our gray matter? And both stories have that most-human of humans, who rises above and out of the repeated memory imprints and leads others to escape and again become human themselves.



I really did like Dollhouse. It wasn't perfect, and I can see why it wasn't well received. But I love these stories that consider what's real and whether we can grab hold of it.



Also: if you've not watched the disc release: there's a passing comment that it was e203 that "killed" the show -- the sociopath who abducted women and posed them as his family in "living" dioramas. The inference was that episode was so off-putting to the general viewership that it killed interest and ratings and remaining network support.


Similarly, for those that haven't seen them, Epilogue 1 (S1 disc set) and Epilogue 2 (S2 disc set) are must see.

 

[DaveF]

This is copy/paste from the Firefly thread in the TV/DVD forum; but I don't know if anyone reads over there




We finished Firefly last night. I figured out why I didn't connect strongly to it originally or this time around: my favorite sci-fi/adventure shows have "big" stories. Characters shape the world, universe. Good vs evil. Hero vs Big Bad. Firefly is not that. It's character drama about small, flawed people with small, flawed lives who don't much matter to the greater universe. It had a lot of potential for what it was, but it's not what I'm normally after.

I can see how someone might quite enjoy it, though I still don't quite get its cult status among the geek set. But OK. But no doubt another season or two would have made it stronger. The actors and writers were still feeling out the characters and needed time to settle into their personas. And from the abrupt mid-season ending and having already seen the movie, there were mythologies to write, character stories yet to reveal, and a greater 'verse to explore. Not my favorite show, but I wish I had a another, more mature season, to follow what I just finished.

 

[mattCR]

I always got that. I think, however, the fact that those things weren't part of Firefly is what made it endearing for a lot of SciFi fans. It was far closer to written Science Fiction.. because the science was reasonable. There wasn't huge faster then light travel. It took a very long time to get to where they were, and changing the worlds meant that there are lots of very rural areas to deal with. In other words, it was science fiction that had the ring of real "possibility" to it versus Science Fantasy. We weren't being hit on a weekly basis with "wow, how about the mumbo-jumbo super technology thing.."

It was as close as I have ever seen on TV to a show that played with potential realities of "what would happen if we shot people off far away and they could colonize a solar system"


I think the problem is with one season, it was hard to develop the big causes. But what was clear was that a centralized government had/was forcing it's will down the lesser colonies, and a clear divide in culture was happening. I found that entire concept intriguing.