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Does anyone here enjoy the films themselves? (1 Viewer)

Nils Luehrmann

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Oh and George... Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar. ;)

(oh my what a mess this thread has become, but at least it is an interesting mess)
 

Robert Crawford

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Michael,
What you do in your own home is your business, but this is a pro-OAR site. We frown on people advocating the viewing of non-OAR presentations on this forum. It's a very touchy subject matter for the forum's management as well as many of our long-time members. I can't count the number of discussions and arguments we've had about OAR and non-OAR presentations. Furthermore, it's a subject matter that many of us refuse to compromise on.

We need to change the topic of discussion because our Mission Statement is very clear on where we as a home theater community stand on this matter.






Crawdaddy
 

Chris S

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I tend to rent films that I love but aren't delivered with good presentation quality. For example I recently rented Twilight Samurai. The film is absolutely amazing! I highly recommend it to everyone. Unfortunately the video quality stinks. When they release a better presentation I'll buy it but until then I'm content with simply renting those titles that I want to watch but which aren't up to the standard that is needed to require a purchase.
 

Nils Luehrmann

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I have not seen it myself, but I've been told that the R2 version from Shochiku is supposed to be very nice, and is recommended over all the current editions. While most of the time, R1 will get the better quality releases; this is not always the case. Not even for some American films.

For this reason, for those that care about having the best possible presentation of a particular film I always recommend getting a region free player. I have had one since '98 and nowadays not only can you buy them very cheaply, but also many R1 players can be 'modified' so that they can play DVDs from any region.

It is at least worth considering, as there are hundreds of superior non R1 DVDs out there.
 

JonZ

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The movie is the most important thing.

Ive said many time, I still have movies on VHS that I'll
watch because I dont think its worth a DVD purchase.

And I watch films on cable as well.

"Unfortunately the video quality stinks."
I picked up the R3 Twilight Samurai. Its 16x9 and 5.1 :)
 

Michael Elliott

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But, as you say, we're here because we're fans of films first of all then it makes no sense to tell people not to view something because it's not the OAR. Those debating this tactic aren't saying buy the P&S/open matte over the widescreen disc. What we're saying is to not skip watching a film simply because of the stupidity of a studio. That stupidity or lack of knowledge on a studios part is no reason for a film to be forgotten or never viewed again. Hopefully people won't ever come to this but more than likely everyone here is going to have a film they love that they'll never get to see in its OAR for whatever reason.

Even the greatest studio in the world has released open matte titles within the last year. I don't think anyone here liked it, many refused to buy it but it's doubtful we'll see another release so in order to view the film we must watch it open matte whether we view it on cable, VHS, LD or the DVD. We've only got one option in those cases. Films like STREETCAR, REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE, PHILADELPHIA STORY and DOG DAY AFTERNOON get a re-release. Stuff like POLICE ACADEMY 5, DEATH WISH 5 and various other "Z" movies don't so we're left with what they give us.

The first group of films are loved by many so they're going to be presented the right way. If you enjoy those types of films then you're pretty much safe with it comes to OAR. On the other hand, if you're in the minority that enjoys smaller stuff then you're going to get screwed by the studio who doesn't think something like DEATH WISH 4 is worthy of a widescreen transfer. Or, as Warner said, a widescreen transfer might just not be possible so that version is the only one we'll ever see. Or, even smaller stuff that a major wouldn't touch and the budget guys don't have proper elements for a widescreen release.

Which also makes me wonder why there were so many supporters of LD. When I went to go buy a player a few years back I was rather shocked that the majority of titles I was interested in were either open matte or P&S only. Thankfully the studios, with the exception of MGM, went 16x9 on the eventual DVD releases.
 

TommyT

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One of the reasons why I've loved collecting films on DVD is because of the extras. Still, with all the extras on all the discs out there I'd have to say that at least half (perhaps a conservative estimate) are less than stellar & I rarely use 'em. BUT I'd rather see the industry continue to pack discs with extras. I've always maintained the opinion that the price of discs won't drop significantly if they are reduced to bare-bones copies only.

That said, I have a very snobbish manner of collecting films on disc. I only buy those I myself consider to be worth my money. So over the past 4 yrs (I guess I was a late comer to the medium) I've only collected 127 movies. That total pales in comparison to other folks on this & other forums who have collected 100s of films.

I've only ever made 2 blind buys: Yojimbo (Criterion) & Re-Animator (Elite Millennium). Re-Anim came highly recommended by my boss. We have the same taste in film.
 

george kaplan

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Michael, you seem to be missing the point about OAR vs. MAR.

This is NOT like a book, which is only available in a cheap paperback, not a great hardcover edition. Of course if the only available version of a great book were a lousy paperback edition with bad art work, etc., you'd still buy it, because you'd still be getting the great book - all of it.

But would you buy that great book if the only edition available was missing every other word? Or missing half the chapters? Cause THAT is what you're getting with a pan & scan dvd. A bastardized, partial version of what was a great film, but is now just a pathetic shell of the film it claims to be.

I think I've made all the arguments I can. If people still don't see why a pan & scan version of a film IS NOT the film they love, then I guess there's not much point to continuing the discussion. Besides, as Robert says, HTF isn't really the place to be having such a discussion, anymore than it's the place to discuss religion, politics or bootlegging.
 

Michael Elliott

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Actually, I've never owned a P&S title so I'm lucky in that aspect. Hopefully a 2.35:1 film I love is never released that way because I certainly wouldn't buy a P&S release.

Another OAR debate could be various silents that should be shown 1.20:1 yet are always released at 1.33:1. NOSFERATU is a title that's most famous shot has always been altered because the film wasn't released windowboxed. I'm not an expert on this so I'm not sure how possible it is to release most of these at 1.20:1 or smaller.

Another debate are certain horror films throughout the 1950s and 1960s that were shown 1.85 in America and 1.66 in Europe. The directors/cinematographers are long dead so the debate to which ratio is "correct" will always be up in the air.
 

Shad R

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OK, I have to chime in. First off...Thomas T, I, as well as many other people in this forum, think Spiderman 2 is a great film. I loved it, and it was definately in my top 5 of 2004. And yea, it does show off my surround sound. What's wrong with a good popcorn movie to show off your system with?
Second...I sometimes blind-buy DVD's. If it's a movie I wanted to see, and I've heard good reviews, I will pick it up. I blind bought Gladiator, and it became one of my all-time favorites. If you feel comfortable doing that, go for it.
Third...Most movies I buy are favorites. I have a "top 100 movies" that I'm gunning for, and I'm 10 shy of completing that list. My movies range from Casablanca to Dumb and Dumber. Movies like Godfather, Shawshank Redemption and the like, are movies I picked up because I love, and will watch multiple times. The movies I bought that aren't on my top 100 include AVP, Pearl Harbor, and Dodge Ball. I bought Dodgeball because I enjoyed it somewhat, but a friend told me it had an outstanding picture, and it does. AVP and Pearl Harbor are audio movie. Sometimes I just wanna sit back, turn off my brain, and turn up my reciever and enjoy some mindless, loud, fun movies like Fast and Furious or Pirates of the Caribean. So what's wrong with that? And for those of you who have multi-thousand dollar stereo systems...what's the point if all you are going to watch are movies recorded in MONO!?! I could watch Citozen Kane with my TV speakers and be just as satisfied as I am with my stereo on. "Hey guys, tonight I'm watching From here to Eternity...on my new $8000 surround system and big screen! you in?!" or "I just picked up Alein V. Predator. Let's go watch it. It has a killer DTS track that I'm gonna crank!" I bought movies purely for A/V quality and there's nothing wrong with that. If all I watched were old movies, than I would have wasted all that time and money on my home theater. I want some movies to justify the cost. There's absolutley nothing wrong with that.
anyway, just my 2 cents. After reading that, it sounds kinda mean, but I'm just trying to tell you where I'm comming from.
 

Simon Howson

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The point is that Citizen Kane has one of the best sound mixes in film history... If you listen to it very closely you will realise just how good it is.
 

Michael Elliott

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What Simon said. There are many Mono tracks that are just as remarkable as a 5.1 for a film made in 2005. There were 100 years of Mono films before 5.1 came along so...... :)
 

Jon Martin

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No one here is advocating pan and scan. It all comes down to the issue of should a film exist only in a perfect form or not at all.

Still, even if it was pan and scan or nothing, if the film is important enough, I would get it.

Maybe I'm more of a film fan than others here, but hasn't anyone else here gone to a college or revival house to sit through a lousy 16mm print just to see a film?

I've watched unsubtitled prints of foreign films in languages I didn't understand, beat up 16mm to vhs transfers, watched tv prints, sat in basements of libraries watching films on a 5 inch screen, read the old books that libraries carried in the pre-video days that just had stills and the screenplays for old classics, anyway to see certain films.

If a film is good enough, it will overcome any obstacle. Have someone sitting in front of you, seat uncomfortable, projectionist drunk and has it misframed, a great film can overcome all those obstacles.

For me, it is film first, dvd transfer second. Yes, every film released SHOULD be OAR. But, if you have no other way of seeing it, I say a non-OAR transfer is better than not at all.

I'm starting to sound like the old man who walked 10 miles to school in the snow, arguing with my grandkids or something.

Even a non-OAR DVD is better than the way I've seen a lot of films.
 

george kaplan

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I feel like Michael Coreleone in Godfather 3. I keep trying to get out and they keep pulling me in.

There is so much truth in there, mixed in with some serious misconceptions. :)

Look, I'm all film first, transfer second. I've seen many a beat up version of great films. I own many sub-par dvds, with transfers that I certainly hope get improved one day.

But we're talking here about inferior transfers of all of great films. That's a far cry from a pan & scan or edited version!!!! I'd rather have a beat-up, scratchy print of an OAR film, than a pristine, high-def transfer of a pan&scan film. I fully understand sitting through imperfect transfers of great films, but I'm never going to understand how you can stand to sit and watch a butchered pan & scan version of a film where you can't even see the end of the actors nose, much less the person they're talking to and claim that you are actually seeing the film you love. You're not!

It reminds me of the famous story of Solomon and the baby, where two mothers claimed it, and Solomon offered to cut it in half. The one who was happy with just half the baby, is like the person whose happy seeing just half a movie. :)
 

Jim_K

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For a minute I had to make sure I was on HTF.

I feel like I'm in a twilight zone episode. ;)



George, keep up the good fight. I'm done.

BTW - I'm enjoying all of your analogies :D
 

Eric Peterson

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I guess it's time for me to jump in.

First and foremost the film is obviously the most important aspect of a DVD. That said, it is often not the reason that I decide to purchase a DVD. If my desire to see that film is only fleeting, or I feel that I'm not going to rewatch it, the film is relegated to my rental list. If this same film is released with plentiful extras (i.e. Commentaries, Documentaries, etc....) it will go straight to my purchase list. I only buy barebones discs when they are films from the great masters or films that I absolutely adore and fear will never get a better treatment.

As for blind buying, I would estimate that about 50% of my 800 DVD collection were blind buys. I enjoy buying discs in this manner, and have found a great many that I absolutely loved. Considering the average price of a DVD, I see very little risk in doing this. In fact, if you compare the price of a DVD to a theater ticket (almost always a blind buy), DVDs are a steal. Then if the movie stinks, you can turn around and get at least 50% of your money back by selling the disc (Try doing that with a movie ticket:D )

As for the whole OAR issue, I sometimes yearn for my younger years of gleeful ignorance. Like many of you, I grew up watching movies on VHS and on cable. 99% of the time these features were butchered, but it made no difference to me. I really only became enlightened at about the same time that DVD launched.
At this point, I only own 2 non-OAR films - Wilder's "The Front Page" (Soon to be fixed) & Steve Martin in "The Jerk" (Even though I can't bring myself to watch it). Having been educated on OAR, I now find it very hard to watch a movie that has been cropped, and I can spot one from a mile away. Sometimes, I'll catch part of something on satellite, and start to watch it, but change the channel as soon as I see the first "Half-Face" or first instance of excessive panning. Although some of these films were my favorites growing up, and I still think they are great films, in non-OAR I find them unwatchable.
In the end, I'm jealous of those of you who can watch their favorite films even though they have been butchered. I wish I could, but I can't. The only thing that I'll add is that I urge you to rent these titles, and not buy them. By purchasing them, you are only giving the studio incentive to release more titles like them.
 

rich_d

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Shad,

Thanks for that. Seems reasonable to me and glad to hear that your taste run the full spectrum. And why shouldn't they? I'm passionate about the great films that have been made but I can also put Shaun of the Dead on and truly enjoy it with my boys.

All,

Naturally the Internet film & DVD forums like this one are skewed towards the young (and male). Thus flashy and violent films that tend to showcase DVDs are also the films they tend towards (as a group).

Many of us are so used to seeing (22 year old guy top 20 films/DVDs) lists that we can recite many of the top choices. Let's see (ignoring the huge boxbusters) ... Fight Club, Se7en, Clerks, Reservoir Dogs, Kill Bill Volume One, Harold and Kumar Go To White Castle, Memento, Pulp Fiction, Boogie Nights, Mallrats, Black Hawk Down, Donnie Darko, Big Lewbowski etc. (and if a girl is coming over who watched Something About Mary last week, he'll put on Amelie or Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind).

22 year old's Old and Older film choices ... The Good, The Bad and the Ugly, Seven Samurai, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, Straw Dogs, Raging Bull, Goodfellas, Godfather 1,2, Casablanca, Alien(s), Evil Dead 1,2 ... that is if he has time from surfing the Internet, downloading porn and Mp3 files and ring tones or watching Freeks and Geeks, Girls Gone Wild Volume 12 (Rio - Tanned and Ready), Viva La Bam or the Ultimate Rick Flair Collection (naturally).

So, individually hard to figure out but as a group very predictable. So what? So were we when we were 22 (probably more so as we had fewer choices).

Naturally many of the demographic's choices do skew to action films that benefit from dynamic audio presentation. Thus it seems reasonable that many would be interested in those matters. Add to that the gearheads/techno freaks, and film lovers of all ages and welcome to the forum. ;)

Those that say it is vastly about the film ... as individuals, I believe them. As a group ... well we talk the talk, but to we walk the walk? Or in forum terms post the post?

Total Posts - HT Movie Forum 210,929

Total Posts - HT Software Forum 437,831

Do the math.

Now people will say that there is a difference between posting about a movie and enjoying a movie or enjoying the film as it pertains to the DVD experience. I agree. It is also fair to mention that many DVD/Software posts contain thoughts about the films themeselves. But is also fair to note that movie posts also mention things about the pertaining DVD too. The bottom line is that we seem to enjoy posting about primary DVD related issues more than posting about the films themselves.
 

Jon Martin

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If you have never seen it any other way, you don't know what you are missing.

Take REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE. I watched this many times on VHS in the 80's in a horrible pan and scan version. But, I had never seen it in a theatre or letterboxed, so I didn't know what I was missing. Still, I loved the movie and it became a favorite, even though it was only available at that time pan and scan. Same with many of Billy Wilder's widescreen movies. There are countless widescreen films I first saw and loved in the pan and scan versions on VHS, pre-laser and DVD. The films were stronger than the transfer issues.

If this were back in the laserdisc days, and full frame releases of widescreen films were being released at $40 a disc, I may be with you in boycotting . But with most of these titles being around $10, it isn't worth the hassle. I'd rather just replace my pan and scan vhs or laser with a dvd since they are so much more convenient and hope for a better version.
 

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