Do your school grades reflect who you are today? (1 Viewer)

[MarkHastings]

However, think back to high-school. How much of the work and tests and homework you did (or were supposed to do) were having to do with reading something than answering questions about what you just read. This is not stimulating.

True, grades should also depend on the teaching methods as well, but as far as high school goes, you can't expect high school to completely teach you everything you need to know about the real world...that's what you learn in college.

No one ever learns trig from high school and is expected to use it on the job right away...that's what college is all about. Most High school teachers can only teach the "read and memorize" way, what you do with that is up to you...You're supposed to take what you've memorized and see what you can do with it later on in life...If you don't decide to pursue trig after high school, then yes, it's pretty useless, but anyone who pursues it any further in college needs that original "read and memorize" tactic. Now if you're in college and still doing the same old "read & memorize" stuff, then you've either got a bad teacher or you've picked a bad college to go to.

Usually the people who really complain that high school was meaningless obviously never went to a good college afterwords (or at all). I'll agree that my high school wasn't the greatest place to learn, but it sure did help me to prepare for college (which is where it really matters).

 

[Bill Griffith]

So are you saying that the teenage mind isn't able to comprehend non memorizing style questions? That teaching them how to problem solve is not a good idea? I think the young mind for most cases will learn anything you throw at it, so why not throw problem solving question at them as opposed to just memorizing things.

 

[Shayne Lebrun]

All grades rate you on is your ability to perform to the 'academic standard,' which is, as I recall, designed to churn out factory workers.

If your job is going to require the same mind set as academic work, then aye, grades are important.

I'm like Ryan; I failed in academic work miserably, because it all seemed rather pointless. A defining moment in my life was when the teacher said 'given these two equations, solve for X,' and I said '12.' The teacher replied, 'very good, now show your work.' I gave her a cock-eyed look and said, honestly, 'what work? Look at it. It's 12. There's no actual computation to be done.' 'Fine,' she says. "Two marks out of ten." Meanwhile, the next person gets up, does the next equation, shows their work, but ultimatly arrives at an incorrect answer. Eight out of ten marks; being correct is only 20 percent of the goal, apparently.

I graduated, by the way, with probably a 65 pecent average.

I firmly believe that North America needs to recognize that 70 or 80 percent of the population shouldn't have a University Degree, and that quite a few professions should be Apprenticed.

 

[Bill Griffith]

Shayne - you ought to see some of the schools in big cities. They're no longer allowed to fail students, even if they fail they can't be held back.

 

[Patrick Sun]

How about when people say that classwork/homework was "pointless" it is more a reflection on the attitude of the student.

Memorization has its place, especially when it lays the foundation of the vocabulary that is needed for a specific field of study/employment.

I had plenty of "word" problems that required problem solving skills for those who recognized them as such in high school and college.

In fact, my college chemistry teacher enjoyed writing children's stories, and his exams were written with a fairy tale flair, filled with made-up chemical elements and their properties. By making up the elements that needed to be analyzed (with chemistry reaction arithmetic), the professor could see if the student was grasping the concepts of handling different variables in order to solve the problem at hand, rather than just memorizing various reactions between chemical components. But you still need to know the vocabulary to communicate within the field of study to converse intelligently.

How quickly you can teach yourself the vocabulary will have an impact on how easily you'll grasp the problem solving techniques needed to face problems down the line.

College course have goals, and if you don't grasps the fundamentals, you'll be left behind as course delves deeper and deeper into the subject. If your goal to understand the material is not a serious endeavor, of course you're going to use the "well, that's not going to be important to me for the rest of my life." It's limiting your options in life with this sort of attitude.

Sure, some will be lucky enough to find employment that is a natural fit with the talents they possess, but it's not a sure thing, and education is one way to hedge your bet in case you don't find that dream job and have to make due in other ways.

 

[MarkHastings]

So are you saying that the teenage mind isn't able to comprehend non memorizing style questions?

Considering so many people are saying that homework was 'pointless', then (to answer your question) apparently.

High school is such a turning point where the ones who want to succeed, will...and the ones who don't, won't.

Again, even more reason to have a college degree. Since most kids in high school have such horrible attitudes, I doubt that any sort of 'improved' teaching method will change their minds one way or the other. Most college professors teach in a more 'real world' way because they know that the students want to be there.

 

[Shayne Lebrun]

So are you saying that the teenage mind isn't able to comprehend non memorizing style questions?

No, quite a few of them aren't. And that's not due to any intrinsic failing, so much as that's what's been drilled into them since kindergarten.

The modern school system is designed to reward mediocraty, punish intelligence, and promote conformity. "good grades" pretty much mean you toe the line and shut up; I personally got into more arguments over my teachers because what they were teaching was flat out wrong than I'm happy to see; I'd have been happier if there was any way to convince them that what's written in the teacher's edition is not the Holy Writ.

These are by no means universal problems, but I've personally watched teacher friends get hammered down for trying to fix things; teachers should be one of the most important elements in our society, and they're one of the most reviled and degraded.

Here's an example. My eldest daughter, five years old, can read quite well. She's certainly known her alphabet for years. Well, her *Senior(!)* Kindergarten class is now trying to teach the kids how to identify letters, and to do so, they're teaching the kids stupid little hand/body signals and noises to make. For example, R is to be identified by growling like a dog, and shaking your head like a dog shaking a chew toy. This frightens me; why not just teach them that it's an R? But it bores my daughter. So, she goes off and reads in the corner. And we get told that she's difficult, anti-social, and doesn't participate.

So, yes, her grades do reflect who I hope she will be in the future; intelligent, self-deterministic, and capable of ignoring things that really don't apply to her, even if others think that they do, yet not be antagonistic or difficult about it.

And, yes, the same with myself. Most of the 95%-average-and-above students I went through high school with could recite, and apply, but not understand or extend. And in almost every case, I'm firmly convinced it's because that's how they were taught to be.

Having several children who are either going into this mess, or about to, I'm rather concerned, you see. It's a subject near and dear to my poor little heart.

 

[MarkHastings]

The modern school system is designed to reward mediocraty, punish intelligence, and promote conformity.

I doubt that any school would punish intelligence. I understand what you mean by your daughter being 'stale mated', but (unfortunately) most kids are dumb as doorknobs and the teachers usually have no choice but to teach to the lowest common denominator.

I feel bad for your daughter, but if she's intelligent, then she'll do fine no matter what situation she's in. Remember, that intelligence will be rewarded once she gets into college where the professors don't slow down for ANYONE! If you can't keep up - You LOSE!

 

[Leila Dougan]

I absolutlely DO think intelligence is punished. The public school system is not designed for intelligent kids.

I was one of "those" kids, and having graduated HS in '97 it wasn't too long ago.

I skipped 1.5 grades in elementary school. By "1.5" I mean I skipped a full grade and then language/reading/math/science another grade, but I kept doing PE and Art with my current grade. When I got into the 5th grade, I was supposed to go to the 6th grade classes for all the core subjects, but because the middle school was on a different schedule, I was held back. I ended up repeating a grade because I was too intelligent. And if I wasn't bored before, I sure was now!

In HS, they restructured the way classes were taught and made all the AP classes the same period. This means that if you're an "honor kid", you can only take one AP class (most of us wanted to take them all). My counselor flat out told me that the schedule wasn't designed for the smart kids and I wouldn't be able to take more than one class. . and I didn't.

All through school, starting from when I was 5, it was my job to teach the slower studends. When the teacher was overworked, or couldn't provide the attention a student needed, guess who stepped in? Yup, it was the smart kids. I've taught so many "slow" kids how to read and how to do basic math that I'm absolutely sick of it. I was so tired of being the teachers pet, the errand runner, the "good one". I found out, unfortunately, that the only way to have the life of a typical student was to be typical. My senior year I finally figured it out and enrolled in regular level classes (no honors or AP), skipped a lot of school, and generally goofed off. In hindsight it was a bad way to go, but I still graduated 3rd in my class with over a 4.1 GPA.

So yes, I think intelligence is punished.

 

[Shayne Lebrun]

Intelligence is punished in that, if the course requirement is to do 100 math questions to beat a concept into your brain, because 50 percent of students need that, 25 percent need more, and 25 percent need less, than what winds up happening is that 50 percent of students are relatively happy, 25 percent get the extra help they need, 25 percent get punished for not bothering to do the 97 questions that they *don't need to do* and can't be convinced to do anyway.

 

[Patrick Sun]

Well, perhaps home schooling is an option for some people's situation.

 

[jeff lam]

Best thing I ever learned about smarts was when I realized there is a huge difference between book smarts and street/real-life smarts. Also the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

My wife is in her last semester of her credential (5th college year). She is a presidents scholar (4.0) and she graduated HS with a 4.3 GPA. She hasn't gotten anything lower than an A in any subject since 7th grade and yet she has a lot to learn in the real world.

I was average in HS (3.0) and above avg in college (3.3-3.5) and far worse when I was younger (2.0-2.5 in grade school) but my common sense and logical reasoning of real world applications far outweigh hers. I am far more practical and always think of a "better way" to do things.

I also found out that grades don't mean jack except for it to look good on your resume and maybe it will land you an interview or two extra.

Communication skills also go a long long way when looking for a good job.

 

[Bill Griffith]

the best schools I ever went to were DOD schools (Department of Defense). This was because they had programs for children that could learn at an accelerated rate.

I was moved ahead in the math and sciences yet stayed in the normal english classes (As can be seen in most of my writing).

As soon as I came back states side and went to a public school I was put in the math class for the grade I was in instead of 2 or 3 grades ahead. I would say I was punished.

 

[MarkHastings]

As soon as I came back states side and went to a public school I was put in the math class for the grade I was in instead of 2 or 3 grades ahead. I would say I was punished.

But that doesn't mean you're being punished, it just means that the school system isn't equipped to handle those students and is "unfortunate". There are plenty of schools out there that would cater to an intelligent school. Throwing yourself in a a public school (that's not equipped to handle such students) is where your problem lies.

The schools are doing the best they can with what they have...There are other programs that can be more beneficial to you. And if you don't have a choice, then DO something about it instead of whining. Most schools don't get the necessary funding needed to do what they need to do...add to that the rules of the school, the parents who complain about everything, etc. etc. etc. and you can't win.

and p.s., If you are upset that your needs aren't being met in school and you think the school isn't teaching you 'real world' concepts...well, face it, that's what the 'real world' is all about. Not many jobs can cater to your intelligence or skills, most people end up in jobs that don't exploit their minds like they should (just like school), if you can't accept that from school, then you'll never be able to accept that at your job.

 

[Shayne Lebrun]

I'd LOVE to home-school my children, but my wife raises a possibly valid point; social interaction.

And yes, there are ways around that, but she's firmly entrenched in the notion that they'll grow up to be anti-social people hating freaks (like me!) if they don't go through school.

So, we do what we can to educate her outside of the classroom, and shield her from the bureaucratic/academic crap, and that's that.

 

[MarkHastings]

Shayne,

Good point, most of the education of child learns need to come from the home. Expecting the schools to teach your kid everything he/she needs to know is like flying blind.

But at the same time, you mention social interaction...isn't this exactly what's keeping her from progressing? i.e. Being mixed in with less intelligent students? I don't have kids so I don't know, but aren't there other ways (besides home school) where a kid can be with smarter kids and interact in a 'normal' way at the same time?

It almost sounds like there should be a way to home school, yet have interactions with other kids.

 

[jeff lam]

But at the same time, you mention social interaction...isn't this exactly what's keeping her from progressing? i.e. Being mixed in with less intelligent students? I don't have kids so I don't know, but aren't there other ways (besides home school) where a kid can be with smarter kids and interact in a 'normal' way at the same time?

Yah, with community sports and extra activities. Having being homeschooled myself for 7th and 8th grade helped me a little but I did miss out on social school stuff and in HS I was quiet and to myself maybe a little more than I should have been. But I had my baseball team to keep me in tune with other kids as well as other friends that didn't go to my previous school anyway.

After those two years I decided home schooling wasn't for me. Part of it was that I wanted to play baseball for my HS team and couldn't do that while being homeschooled. But some of it was also for just being too bored at home all day.

 

[Josh Lowe]

I dropped out of college after one year. I decided to hop on the growing IT wave (this was in early 1995). I saw the writing on the wall after the IPOs of Netscape and Yahoo.

I looked at it this way:

I could dick around in college for four years cutting my teeth on stuff that was already two steps behind and would fall even further behind as the whole dotcom boom gained momentum

or

I could go out and cut my teeth closer to the front lines.

I chose the latter. I started working my way up the IT ladder at age 19. I am now 27 and I am pretty far ahead of the curve. Most of the people I work with are in their mid 30s or older.

But all that being said, I do believe that I should have found a way to get a degree. I think there are a lot of things you learn in college that don't have a thing to do with grades, and that my lacking those has cost me in some important ways.