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Do isolation components work ? (Vibrapods, Cones, bearings, feets) (1 Viewer)

John-D

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Feb 27, 2001
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198
Heyeee.. i thought we agreed to let this thread die!!
[Edited last by John-D on August 17, 2001 at 04:00 PM]
 

Saurav

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No, we suggested that it be moved away from tweakers vs. geekers and back to isolation. We're talking about isolation now :P
[Edited last by Saurav on August 17, 2001 at 04:06 PM]
 

John-D

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Feb 27, 2001
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198
oh .. ok.. Isolation components.
Why are such tweaks only 'audible' (i'm playing along with claims right now) on so called high resolution and expensive systems alone? One would think that some scammer selling a 'transport' for $5000 would have thought of 'isolating' the damn machine in the first place!
Oh who am I kidding.. 'isolate' to your hearts content. It will bring out the *insert all audiophilic adjectives* in your music.. but only if you paint the CD's green and let them freeze in a refrigerator for two days first.
 

Saurav

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OK, I'll address Robert's question to you too, John - can you give me one solid scientific reason why isolation should not make a difference? "Why is it audible only in high end systems" is not a scientific reason why it cannot work. Moreover, no one said it's audible only in high-end systems - I heard differences, and my system is anything but high-end.
You've been protesting and complaining quite a bit, but you haven't provided a single statement to support your point of view. I've provided two links in this thread so far, and while that isn't the same thing as an IEEE approved paper, IMO it's better than nothing.
This isn't intended as a personal attack, so I hope it isn't viewed as one. I'm just asking you to provide something to back up your opinions on isolation, because without backup, that's all they are - your opinions.
Edit: As far as tweaks in general go, the reason they're more readily audible in high-end systems is pretty simple, if you stop to think about it. Here's an analogy - say you have a 100 ohm resistor. Now, you add a 1 ohm resistor to it and measure the combined resistance, and then you add a 2 ohm resistor to the 100 ohm resistor and measure that too. While the difference between the two readings (101 ohms and 102 ohms) is 1 ohm, this represents a 1% difference in your reading. If you repeated this by replacing the 100 ohm resistor with a 1 ohm resistor, the difference would still be 1 ohm (2 and 3), but now it's 50%. Human senses are more sensitive to changes and differences, than absolute values. One great example of this is perfect pitch - very few people have it, but many more can follow a tune or know when someone is singing off-key. The difference between 40 Hz and 60 Hz is half an octave, almost any human will be able to hear that. The difference between 10,000 Hz and 10,020 Hz is a fraction of a note, even most musicians will not be able to hear that.
It should be clear how this applies to high end audio. When you reduce a small amount of noise in a system, how audible the change is depends on how much noise there was to begin with.
[Edited last by Saurav on August 17, 2001 at 05:28 PM]
 
J

John Morris

Tweaks... a mind/brain is a wonderful thing.
rolleyes.gif

For the ultimate tweak, I'd recommend wetting the inside of your ears with conduction gel and then simply plugging the speaker cables into that gel... NOT!
eek.gif

Hey, most tweakz are BS, yet how can you know if you didn't try them?????
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Take Care,
merc
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DFAST, 5C, DVI, HDCP, SafeAudio, Macrovision and Lewinski!!!
 

John Morton

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More readers should listen to saurav on this!!
I can personally attest to the FACT that I not only audibly noticed a difference, but my response curve flattened out as well.
My DVD player was on the bottom shelf of my TV stand (basically on a piece of wood, which was resting on the floor). My receiver was up on the shelf above. My system was setup this way and I had NOT changed anything in relation to audio for almost a year. I took my DVD player to a friend's house to show him the difference vs cable on his TV. When I got back home, I figured I might as well put the DVD player on the top shelf and move the receiver to the bottom shelf because the top shelf was bending down from the weight. I was always very pleased with the sound of my system, but I was astonished when I turned it on in it's new configuration. The mids were MUCH cleaner. The bass did go MUCH lower as well as was MUCH more precise. I could understand MUCH better what people were saying while watching movies. The picture was also NOTICABLY better.
I actually went back and verified my calibration because I thought maybe the change was dirt on my optical cable, something else was changed while I was gone, or I was in the twighlight zone.
To verify this wasn't a placebo effect, I pulled my DVD player forward and back onto the floor, in front of my TV. Sure enough, the sound was still great, but NOTICABLY LESS CLEAR. My response curve was also right back where it was when I started.
I then called my dad and had asked him do the same thing with his system while NOT giving him any explanaition as to why. He has a duplicate of my system, which I setup, the same way, unfortunately, or we'd have found this long ago. He called me back 20 minutes later in amazment with EXACTLY the same findings I had.
I told this to a friend at work, and he tried the inner tube idea. His response was that there was also a very noticable (benificial) difference in HIS system.
Saurav had a great analogy in reference to cars. I have an Alpine 6 disk CD changer in my car. If dampening didn't make any difference, WHY IS THE INTERNAL MECHANISM MOUNTED TO THE OUTSIDE CARRIER VIA OIL DAMPENERS?? My CD player has skipped maybe 6 times in 5 years and always sounds incredible. To test the opositions theory that dampeners make no difference, I placed a piece of wood between the side of the mechanism and the carrier, thus rendering the dampeners useless. I drove 1/2 mile up the street and couldn't take it any longer. The damn thing skipped every few seconds and sounded like crap when it did play. I took the piece of wood out and it sounded just like it had before.
Thinking about cars further, I used to drag race. If dampening didn't make any difference, WHY DID THE HIGH END IGNITION SYSTEM I HAD FROM MSD (which is an electronic input / output device, just like an HT receiver) COME WITH INSTRUCTIONS AND MATERIALS TO MOUNT THE UNIT TO THE FIREWALL VIA DAMPENING MATERIAL?
I would also like to contend that any plus / minus effects might be dependent on the particular equpment in use. I would even go as far as saying that 2 identical brand pieces of equip might not show the same results from a particular tweak.
SO, IMO, do dampeners work??? ABSOLUTELY, ON MY SYSTEM, I'M SURE ON OTHERS, REGUARDLESS OF PRICE, AND REGUARDLESS OF HOW WELL YOU CAN HEAR.
As a final thought, the idea of placing your CD / DVD plaer on your sub was a VERY good one. I think the people that dispute this thread with no evidence should try it at full reference for 30 days and then let us know your stance.
bahahahaha. You might be buying a new player!! :) :) :)
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Chu Gai

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"On the otherhand, if you are open to the point of gullibility, and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in you,then you cannot distinguis useful ideas from the worthless ones. If all ideas have equal validity then you are lost, because then, it seems to me, no ideas have any validity at all." Carle Sagan, Pasadena, 1987.
 

Saurav

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Quoted partially, and out of context. And this has nothing to do with isolation :) Anyway, here's the complete quote (or at least, as complete a version as I could find):
It seems to me what is called for is an exquisite balance between two conflicting needs: the most skeptical scrutiny of all hypotheses that are served up to us and at the same time a great openness to new ideas. If you are only skeptical, then no new ideas make it through to you. You never learn anything new. You become a crotchety old person convinced that nonsense is ruling the world. (There is, of course, much data to support you.)
On the other hand, if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in you, then you cannot distinguish the useful ideas from the worthless ones. If all ideas have equal validity then you are lost, because then, it seems to me, no ideas have any validity at all.
A pretty interesting quote, actually.
 

Mike Kao

Second Unit
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Oct 31, 2000
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No one has been able to offer any scientific evidence as to WHY isolation wouldn't offer any sonic/visual improvments, but on the other end, I have yet to hear any credible scientific evidence proving it's worth. You can't validate isolation by saying that putting your dvd player on a sub will degrade it's performance. Most likely it will because the pickup will have trouble reading the disc with accuracy and most possibly from electrical interference. Perhaps if your DVD player rumbles like that on your rack/shelf or whatever you may have it placed on, isolation may help, but I think it's safe to say that that is not the case in almost all instances.
The minute vibrations that it MAY encounter however, in most likelyhood will not make a difference... at least not an audible or perceiveable difference. Now I'm not saying my word is truth, but I'm speaking from logic for the most part. If you honestly believe you are encountering a significant difference, then most likely you're either a victim of the placebo effect or you have some SUPER sensitive eyes/ears...
Now can someone PLEASE clarify isolation? Some of you are saying that it involves placing cones/pods/isolators under the component, for others isolation is simply putting a piece of equipment on a top shelf and separating it from your other components, and yet others say it involves placing the unit on a brick(?) and another heavy item on top
? So what IS isolation? How about I try sandwiching my DVD player with bricks and place the bricks on a vibrapod... all on the top shelf? Hey it may look ridiculous, but as long as I'm getting superior sound and picture I guess it's ALL worth it!
[Edited last by Mike Kao on August 17, 2001 at 09:53 PM]
 

Chu Gai

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the onus of proof as to whether they work is on those who market and make them. a claim is made and other than anecdotal comments, i've yet to see some evidence but would certainly welcome it if any were available.
 

Saurav

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the onus of proof as to whether they work is on those who market and make them.
I didn't see anyone trying to market anything in this thread. Why should the people making a claim be expected to prove it, when the people claiming it's impossible aren't expected to provide any explanations? Take this statement, for instance - "The minute vibrations that it MAY encounter however, in most likelyhood will not make a difference... at least not an audible or perceiveable difference." What is that, if not anecdotal? Where is the proof that it will not? Isn't that a claim too?
Am I the only one who sees double standards here?
 

Chu Gai

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saurav...the initial thread has to do with do isolation components work? Turntables aside, do they have an effect upon the other components? Let's not get into semantics here. I am not asking the individual posters to prove their claim. Rather the burden of proof should be with the manufacturers. Even at least one manufacturer. Or some sort of study that was done at a credible institute which can be referenced. The fact that these products exist is an implicit statement that they do something of audible benefit, no? The burden of proof is not on me to show that they don't work. It goes the other way and its not a situation of double standards whatsoever. Until such time as it can be substantiated, it remains a null. When we stop or refuse to insist that statements be proven, we provide a disservice to the end user. You appear to be of the mindset that its ok to put a product out there and not be able to substantiate its effectiveness and leave it up to the enduser to make the judgement call as to whether it works or not. I don't see it that way for to me its wrong and can lead and has lead to products that are fraudulent. Don't you think its shocking to sell such products for 100's of dollars with advertising that uses the word 'may' or 'it depends on the discerning ability of your system'?
I seem to recall that you're involved in software development. If i'm wrong then please excuse me. But if you are and your objective is to write a particular routine, aren't you expected to demonstrate that it works and does the intended function? Your supervisor would not tolerate the writing of code without supporting tests that proves it works as it was intended to. The vast majority of posts here either state it does work or it may work. Show me the research that was done to substantiate the need for such a product and its audible benefit. I'll listen, really I will. Until such time my reply to the poster of this thread is 'its an unproven product'. God bless and good night :)
 

Saurav

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Chu Gai,
I completely agree with you. The vast majority of isolation products in the market today make very dubious claims, and are designed on poorly understood principles. Using them without understanding the mechanics of their operation (which is how most consumers use them) leads to a situation where any improvements are purely a matter of chance, and I would guess that in plenty of cases these devices actually detract from the sound.
And yes, I am in software development, you have a good memory.
As for published research results - I, personally, do not have the tools to carry out the relevant tests. Again - I, personally, do not feel the need for numbers to substantiate what I hear. I do not think the sound of an audio system can be completely specified by a set of numbers - for instance, two speakers can be identical in all the specs available, and still sound pretty different. Here's how I look at it - if there are numbers to disprove a claim, then the claim is bogus. No doubt about it. However, if there are no numbers to indicate anything, that doesn't mean that the claimed phenomenon doesn't exist. Some forum member's signature sums it up best - "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".
Anyway, I think I am done with this discussion. It's been a real pleasure communicating with you.
 

Darrel McBane

Second Unit
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Oct 8, 1999
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363
About a year ago a local dealer loaned me several different brands of cables to try with my new Rotel 1095 five channel amp, Act-3 pre/amp processor and Klipsch Forte' speakers.One of the advantages of going through local dealers. The Act-3 and Klipsch together sounded great with the Rotel. But horns do have a "brighter sound". If matched with very bright equipment, reflective rooms and sensitive ears. And can take some effort to tame.
But to stay with the topic at hand. He also loaned me some isolation devices. Black Diamond Racing "cones", "those things" and "pits". They are made of graphite. I've worked with carbon fiber material and graphite for over ten years so I have a pretty good working knowledge of the material. They come in two different numbers, #3 and #4. And are used under CD players, pre/amps, DVD players etc. Basically anything that has a power supply or moving parts. Now, the #3 are used primarily for solid state equipment and the #4 for tube amps, pre/amps. But can be mixed and matched to any combination that sounds best.
I played with them for about two weeks starting with just the "cones" under different pieces. First my Act-3 pre/amp. Then adding "those things" ( which are a 2.75" square and 1/2" thick graphite block with a threaded hole in the center that allows the "cones" to be screwed into it. The base is placed to make contact with the pre/amp and the "cones" point down to a surface. My stand is made of wood. That makes a difference.) and then adding the "pits" ( which are like "those things" except there is no screw hole and have a drilled pit into one of the flat surfaces). The combination looks like an hour...sort of. What I noticed over the time that I used them was that the #3 under my pre/amp made the biggest difference. And sounded best when using all three of the completed set of #3. The sound change was very subtle. But improved with each addition to the set. Harshness and brightness smoothed out considerably to my ears. Results of devices like these are like so many other things in this hobby. Very equipment and user dependent. The price of the complete set of #3s were about that of a mid-fi receiver if I remember right. I have since bought four of the #3 "cones" and "those things" on the used market. And am looking for at least three of the "pits" to complete the set.
Just thought I'd add a first hand experience to the discussion. And it's worth exactly what you paid for it.
wink.gif

My use of cables from the dealer was also a great learning experience.
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Rich Kraus

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i just want to get some stage 3 rollerball bearings, so i can have the ultimate marbels for my marbel collection.
(partly in jest, but part of me really does want some for said reason :) )
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'Till next time,
Rich (the kite guy)
My DIY audio page!
Use your ashtray please, dont throw um on the street. thanks :)
 

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