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DIY Subwoofer Amplifier seekers, come and get 'em (1 Viewer)

Patrick Sun

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Joined
Jun 30, 1999
Messages
39,660
Vince,
Thanks for the explanation.
"I assume, Standard home audio should be based upon the 10dbv output scheme while pro audio is on the +4dbu scheme."
Yes, what happened was many of us bought an amp based on the +4dBu Pro audio scheme when we needed the 10dBv output scheme of home audio gear. There was a $69 step-up converter to go from receiver preamp outputs to the +4dBu level, but I decided not to go that route with the Samsom.
Obi has the Samson 1000, and he killed 2 of his SVS subs due to improper Subwoofer LFE output levels from his receiver.
I don't know if the Samson 1000 is a piece of home audio gear or pro audio gear. I suspect the former.
------------------
PatCave ; HT Pix ; HT Gear ; Sunosub ; Pat's DVDs ; Link Removed
 

Vince Maskeeper

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Joined
Jan 18, 1999
Messages
6,500
Yes, what happened was many of us bought an amp based on the +4dBu Pro audio scheme when we needed the 10dBv output scheme of home audio gear. There was a $69 step-up converter to go from receiver preamp outputs to the +4dBu level, but I decided not to go that route with the Samsom.
Well, just so we're clear it is -10dbv for home and +4dbu for pro: the standard for pro operates at a HIGHER level than the home products, not the other way around. So home products, in theory, wouldn't output enough to get full potential out of a pro amp...
BUT I serious don't think you'd need the step up product, again, seeing that people are able to clip the mackie with tehir receiver leads me to believe a reciever is quite able to produce a +4dbu output!
The mackie needs a +4dbu to clip, I assume the Fidek and the Samson are both the same - or very close.
I'm going to experiment once i have everything my my new sustem set up and find out what kind of outputs I get. I'm also planning to get in touch with TV and see what number he comes up with.
-Vince
------------------
What I Hate About Recording: Producers and Engineers who use meaningless words to make their clients think they know what's going on. Words like "punchy," "warm," "groove," "vibe," "feel." Especially "punchy" and "warm." Every time I hear those words, I want to throttle somebody." - Steve Albini
 

Vince Maskeeper

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Joined
Jan 18, 1999
Messages
6,500
PS: Just checked the info on the samson website: the 550 amplifier has an IS of +4dbu! This is the exact same as the mackie.
Can't find info online on the fidek.
-Vince
------------------
What I Hate About Recording: Producers and Engineers who use meaningless words to make their clients think they know what's going on. Words like "punchy," "warm," "groove," "vibe," "feel." Especially "punchy" and "warm." Every time I hear those words, I want to throttle somebody." - Steve Albini
 

Vince Maskeeper

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 18, 1999
Messages
6,500
So basically said:
Also, if you're interested in more detail, try this: http://prorec.com/prorec/articles.ns...25675400514576
Scroll down to "A side trip -- "Professional" vs. "Consumer" Levels"
Oh, and read this too: http://www.live-audio.com/messages/34292.html
and these: http://www.live-audio.com/studyhall/basic_gain.pdf http://www.live-audio.com/studyhall/...gain_paper.pdf
-Vince
PS; This post brings me back to my original point. If a mackie amplifier would require a 1.2 Volts to reach maximum, and a home product was only able to produce .32 Volts of output, you shouldn't be able to get the mackie up to clip with your home product. But some people say they can, so this leads me to believe that current DD receivers can push out more than .32 Volts of output!!
Also, above I use the term dbv. Well actually, it should be dbV (with an uppercase letter), because dbv (with a lowercase letter) is actually the exact same thing as dbu! So, if anyone was following along and giving me an essay grade, I would probably get a D, or maybe a D-, since the proper statement is dbV. I simply typed all this fast and skimmed over the proper upppercase/lowercase issues, and the idea of dbv=dbu is really only known by people who have a whole lot of time on their hands, and a pocket protector bigger than mine!!
Did that make ANY sense? Whooo, I need a glass of lemonaid!
------------------
What I Hate About Recording: Producers and Engineers who use meaningless words to make their clients think they know what's going on. Words like "punchy," "warm," "groove," "vibe," "feel." Especially "punchy" and "warm." Every time I hear those words, I want to throttle somebody." - Steve Albini
 

james_w

Auditioning
Joined
Mar 2, 2000
Messages
8
Thanks for the informative post Vince, just to let
you know my Sony 555ES analog outputs are rated
at 2v into 1K ohms, while the Mackie's input
is 1.23V into 4ohms, a difference of about 3 tenths
of an amp, or the Sony does have a higher voltage
but has more resistance. This all means that the
Sony has to be turned up about 1/3 more for the
Mackie to reach full output. Is this correct?,
Seeing as how the Sony is the source, the limiter
here is the Sony's higher resistance in the output.
Am I way off?
I guess I could rig up an RCA cable and take the measurments, how do I do this accuratly, what needs
to be set to what in order for me to get a usable reading.
------------------
James Wayne Johnson
 

Vince Maskeeper

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 18, 1999
Messages
6,500
I guess I could rig up an RCA cable and take the measurments, how do I do this accuratly, what needs
to be set to what in order for me to get a usable reading.
I would personally be less interested in a voltage metering than just a basic nominal output test:
1) Hook you your receiver subwoofer pre-amp output to your mackie amp.
2) Disconnect your sub speakers from the amp [just to be safe].
3) Set the volume to 50% (high noon if it is an analog contol)
4) Set the subwoofer output to 0 (no boost, no cut)
5) Play a 0db test tone around 50hz (something that will for sure be routed 100% to the sub). Hopefully you have a Test tone CD with 0 db tones.
6) Tell me what the meters on the mackie say. Do the clip? Do they hang around -10?
Bonus: After you finish, try connecting the CD player DIRECTLY to the amplifier and playing the same tones, see what you get. The CD direct line should be playing fixed at -10dbv, so if the receiver meters higher- then it is exceeding -10dbv.
-Vince
 

james_w

Auditioning
Joined
Mar 2, 2000
Messages
8
I would personally be less interested in a voltage metering than just a basic nominal output test:
1) Hook you your receiver subwoofer pre-amp output to your mackie amp.
2) Disconnect your sub speakers from the amp [just to be safe].
3) Set the volume to 50% (high noon if it is an analog contol)
4) Set the subwoofer output to 0 (no boost, no cut)
5) Play a 0db test tone around 50hz (something that will for sure be routed 100% to the sub). Hopefully you have a Test tone CD with 0 db tones.
6) Tell me what the meters on the mackie say. Do the clip? Do they hang around -10?
Bonus: After you finish, try connecting the CD player DIRECTLY to the amplifier and playing the same tones, see what you get. The CD direct line should be playing fixed at -10dbv, so if the receiver meters higher- then it is exceeding -10dbv.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Where do I set the Mackies gain controls at?
Ok I did it, set the sub output to 0, put the Mackies
gain @3v or halfway and clipped the Mackie with
the Sony @ halfway almost to the tee.
Now if I set the Mackie to full gain or 1.23v
I can clip the Mackie with my Sony at 1/3rd volume.
EDIT: I tried again and found that the with the Mackies
gain control and Sony's volume both at halfway the
Mackie was in a hard clipping bright red, I actually
can clip the Mackie with the Sony @1/3rd volume
whats interesting is that I can clip the Mackie with
the Sony @ 1/3 volume with the Mackies gain controls
anywhere begining at just before halfway on the Mackie
all the way up to full gain. Uh oh is this bad news
about the Mackie Vince?
I do know one thing my Sony reaches full power
output right before halfway, claimed by Sony
to put out 120x5 watts per ch into 8ohms, actually
it puts out closer to 85 clean watts into 5 channels
with all channels driven.
Actually the Sony is over 1/3rd volume when I can
clip the Mackie this is very close to the full output
for the Sony, I would say the Sony's full output
is about 11oclock, pretty much the spot where
the mackie can be clipped from its 11oclock spot
on up to full blast.
Another EDIT
frown.gif
11oclock may not be the Sony 555ES full
output but it is
my personal limit where the sound quality
start to take a dive, I guess it well could be
higher an that but my speakers scream out to
turn it down right around 12oclock, @ 1oclock the
speakers are hitting mechanical limits
now I don't use 5channels either and the Sony does
put out 230watts into 4ohms with two channels driven
so halfway may well be half output, this is
driving PSB Stratus Bronze speakers and nothing else,
4ohms 150watts, when I get my Kit281 and the Kit
281 center and surrounds hooked up I will get
a better Idea of the Sony's output capabilities)
Now that I thought about it I will set the Sony at
half its output, and the Mackie at half its output,
hold on a second.................
..................
about -9 on the Mackies meter, but it is really hard to
tell where exactly half the Sony's output is, since volume to
knob turning ratio gets larger as it gets closer to full
output, or the volume gets louder faster with less turning,
if you know what I mean.
One thing is for sure, I can play the Sony at moderate
levels and get all the bass I could possibly want, with
room to spare without using bass boost, or subwoofer gain.
I also figured I would see what the bass boost is
on my Sony, sure enough exactly 6dB as claimed,
I also tested the subwoofer gain , 1dB step to 10dB
this was also dead on.
Thanks Vince, I learned something today,
I now know where exactly the peak outputs are
on my Mackie so I can set it in according to
my Sony , I guess I already was pretty close
because some of the peak settings on the Mackie
in relation to the Sony's volume control,
are close to where I run
the Sony and PSB's (90Hz>)
@ 100dB without peaks,
allowing
the Mackie to drive the Shivas just to there limits
without hitting any mechanical limits.
(with two Stratus
Bronze speakers anyway, I will have to do this
test again with the 5 Avatar Speakers)
Can you break this down for me or do you need more info?
BTW let me mull over the amps I am considering for
my mains and surrounds, I will get back to you,
I already know I will at least try a pro-amp
for my mains, if I don't like it I can always use it
as another subwoofer amp. I am leaning toward the
Yorkville amps seeing as how pro's are comparing them
with Crest and they are pretty powerful.

------------------
James Wayne Johnson
 

Vince Maskeeper

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 18, 1999
Messages
6,500
absolutely said:
And the price is sweet as sugar! I would try poking around online and seeing if you can find any reviews, or maybe look around on the live audio board (http://www.live-audio.com ).
One note, the Live audio board is a PROFESSIONAL resource: so if anyone drops by to read up (and if you're interested in this stuff, their study hall area is excellent)-- JUST LURK, please don't post! It isn't an environment like the HTF: although I'm sure everyone would be nice, it really isn't the proper place for posting questions about amps for your house! I hesistate to even provide a link to the board for fear people will run over and bother those guys, but I trust you will be responsible and just READ.
Oh, and if you drop by Live audio, check out their classifieds, another source for used gear a realistic prices.
-Vince
------------------
What I Hate About Recording: Producers and Engineers who use meaningless words to make their clients think they know what's going on. Words like "punchy," "warm," "groove," "vibe," "feel." Especially "punchy" and "warm." Every time I hear those words, I want to throttle somebody." - Steve Albini
 

james_w

Auditioning
Joined
Mar 2, 2000
Messages
8
Well to be honest, I usually don't trust an amplifier's input pad, and don't use it unless I absolutely have to! So, I would personally use the Mackie with the input knobs turned WIDE OPEN, and let your preamp have control.
>>>>>>

There is way too much bass if I do this, I usually
keep the Mackie @ just over halfway for moderate
listening, I can crank up the Mackie for super loud
listening.
If you find that you cannot possibly get your Preamp sub output backed off enough to allow you to get everything even, then consider lowering the Mackie input knobs. But if my Preamp could dial in calibrated level with the Mackie's inputs WIDE OPEN, I would absolutley run it that way!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I would have to subtract bass via my subwoofer output
to do this
I wanted to confirm something: your subwoofer output is wired directly to the amplifier in these experiments, correct? You're not using an EQ inbetween?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Nothing inbetween, I will never EQ my subs.,
I prefer the big ass subs that don't require EQ'ing.

Just out of curiosity, when you have your system set up and calibrated to 85 db or whatever, where is your sub output set? In order to get even SPL from all channels, did you have your sub output cutting or boosting??
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well like I said I control the subs via the gain
on the Mackie, if I used my Sony I would have to
subract somewhere between 6-10db from the sub
output and even then I think the sub would be too loud,
I will find out though.

I would say the Sony's full output is about 11oclock, pretty much the spot where the mackie can be clipped from its 11oclock spot on up to full blast

(See my edit above I am wrong on this one after thinking about it)
BTW- in your tests, what were you using as test material? Were you using test tones playing at 100% output (as instructed ), or were you using actual music? Hopefully you were using test tones!
>>>>>

20Hz tones.
GREAT! See, again, it is a 1400 watt amp in your livingroom for godssake- so you shouldn't really need to hit her hard in order to get your popcorn rattling. Headroom is a good thing, you really should see your amp hanging under the 50% area on the meter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

For every day listening the signal light is barly flashing
and I have tons of bass.
I would personally use the Mackie with the input knobs turned WIDE OPEN, and let your preamp have control. At least, that is where I would start. I would go ahead and try to calibrate this way. If you find yourself and your RS SPL meter unable to get the sub down to the point where it is even with all channels (In other words, if you set your sub output to -10 and it still is too loud)- THEN I would probably back the mackies off a touch.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So its better to control the Mackie via the subwoofer
output on my Sony rather than the Mackies gains?
I will try what you said here...Mackies gains full up
and control bass via the Sony and let you know the
results.
But if you open up the Mackie all the way and are able to get even level with the preamp controls, that would be the route I would take.
>>>>>>>>

Again....
Sure if I want to completly drown out my mains!!!

Of course, no matter where you end up, make sure to pay some attention to what the amplifier is doing during use. Now you know how possible it is to clip the amplifier: you might want to keep the corner of your eye on the amps from time to time, just to get an idea of how they usually run.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

The Shivas die before the Mackie hit it limits.
------------------
James Wayne Johnson
 

Vince Maskeeper

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 18, 1999
Messages
6,500
Quote:



There is way too much bass if I do this, I usually
keep the Mackie @ just over halfway for moderate listening, I can crank up the Mackie for super loud listening.





Once you get everything set up, you should never have to adjust the Mackie gain: even for loud listening. The subwoofer output on your receiver goes up and down with the volume, so leaving the mackie amplifier alone and just turing up the volume should increase everything just fine, and evenly.


Quote:



I would have to subtract bass via my subwoofer output
to do this.





Of course, that is why it is there! Because room sizes and speaker positions vary, they have given you the ability to adjust your output by 20dbv in order to match all channels. There is no rule that you should run it a 0 (the same for your rear channels, you should adjust until test tones read the same SPL on a meter from all channels!)


Quote:



Nothing inbetween, I will never EQ my subs.,I prefer the big ass subs that don't require EQ'ing.





HA! You're kidding right?

There is no such thing as a Sub that doesn't require EQing, big ass or no! Heck, I run Turbosound systems, who's sub is a 22 inch driver: I would never ever operate such a system without EQ control, nobody would ever consider not using EQ in the pro world!

See, no matter how BIG ASS or expensive a subwoofer is, it cannot possibly know the size and shape of your room, cannot possibly know it's postion in a room, cannot possibly know how far it is from the nearest wall, cannot possibly know where your furniture is, cannot possibly know what your walls are lined with, cannot possibly know what kind of carpeting you have... You could be using 22 inch drivers that cost $100,000 each- and they are still dumb as a magnet in a box! Sure they are flat in a test chamber: but in the real world they aren't!

All these things listed above will effect the subwoofers performance in your room: the room itself will provide TONS of peaks and valleys in your bass signal. If you are interested in TRUE bass response, you will want to procure an EQ and do some work to get flat response from your subs.

I assume from your comments you must be thinking of Eqing as a "trick" to squeeze a few db from the lowest register: but it certainly IS NOT! EQing is the way to fix the "errors" in response caused by your room. EQ is not a tone knob, and not a BS trick to get 18hz: it is really meant to cut some of the bands in which your system is excessive on. You should read over the recent thread re:Eq'ing from the hardware forum: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/uub/...ML/023472.html


Quote:



Well like I said I control the subs via the gain
on the Mackie, if I used my Sony I would have to subract somewhere between 6-10db from the sub output and even then I think the sub would be too loud, I will find out though.





Either way, you're subtracting gain: either at the mackie's input pad or the Sony's output level. If you can get enough subtraction from the Sony to get even SPL on the meter from all channels, I would run the amp full open and control the level from the preamp!

If the sony at -9 or -10 still cannot get even SPL from all channels, I would back off the Mackie a few db and tape the knobs in place so they don't get "adjusted" by accident.


Quote:



So its better to control the Mackie via the subwoofer
output on my Sony rather than the Mackies gains? I will try what you said here...Mackies gains full up and control bass via the Sony and let you know the results.





If it is possible to have enough control form the Sony, I would probably perfer doing it that way. I've persoanlly found that cheaper amps sound better when you don't use their own input controls at all!

Besides the sound of the mackie, it places all the control within one unit, the sony- making everything a little nicer: rather than multiple adjustments on multiple pieces of gear: everything is controlled by a system controller, which is ideal. In addition, if someone were to tweak your knobs on the Mackie- you would know immediately since they should be all the way open.

It just makes everything easier, and should make the Mackie amplifier perform a little better.


Quote:



Again....Sure if I want to completly drown out my mains!!!





Well, you're cutting DB either way: either at the preamp or the amp. If it is possible to cut enough at the preamp for everything to be at proper level: that is probably the better way to go.

If you find that with the Mackie all the way open you can't cut the Preamp enough to get everything to meter properly in SPL, then- obviously- make the adjustment at the amplifier.


Actually, IMHO, the Mackie people screwed up, and the input level should be on the back, like it is on 90% of pro amps. These are not volume knobs, these amplifiers expect a preamp device (like a mixing board) to control the amount of level they are fed. These knobs are designed be set and left, and a preamp unit (in your case the receiver) should be governing how much level is sent to the amp. Heck, some studio amplifiers out there don't have any input attenuation at all!

The amp input gain attentuation is really only supposed to be used is a situation where the pre-amp unit cannot possibly back off the signal far enough to operate at the proper level. But even then, these knobs are designed to be set at the proper attenuation to overcome the problem and left at that level. All control over volume variation is to come from a preamplifier unit (Like a Mixing Board, or a preamp or a receiver).


Hope this helps
Vince


------------------
What I Hate About Recording: Producers and Engineers who use meaningless words to make their clients think they know what's going on. Words like "punchy," "warm," "groove," "vibe," "feel." Especially "punchy" and "warm." Every time I hear those words, I want to throttle somebody." - Steve Albini
 

james_w

Auditioning
Joined
Mar 2, 2000
Messages
8
Vince I feel like I just got scolded for not using
an EQ, but thanks I will have to learn much more
about acoustics then perhaps try an EQ, I will
also match my system up as you recommend,
Don't dog me now, I set up my system by ear and
play with the knobs until it sounds good, its kind
of fun really but
I will match up the speakers to the sub and use
the Sonys subwoofer gain, you did shed some light
on why do this,.. so I don't have to constantly
go back and forth from the Sony to the Mackie
each time I want more volume.
I will set up the system "by the book" and see
what sort of difference this makes.
I am no audiofile just an enthusiast , I am not the
type of guy who listens to a 10,000 two channel set-up
and says " Very nice sounding, however its just a
bit to stringy for my tastes......Perhaps
those $15000 speaker wire will calm those strings
down abit, or perhaps even some decent quality
vibration dampners for the amp and pre-amp will
help"
( Just a joke)
Thanks Vince,
------------------
James Wayne Johnson
 

Vince Maskeeper

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 18, 1999
Messages
6,500
YOUR said:
I certainly hope I don't give the impression that I'm like that either! In fact, calling me an audiophile: them's is fightin words!
Unfortunately, the audiophile sect (IMHO) kids themselves into believing that perfection is attainable. The science behind the recording and playback of sound absolutely prevents such perfection: the key is to be happy with what you've got.
And, I can honestly say, I think with your subs EQ'd and your channels all matched, you'll probably find yourself much happier with what you've got!
-Vince
Oh, and if anyone needs an amplifier, I've still got tons of guys looking to sell!!
wink.gif
 
Joined
Jun 3, 1999
Messages
36
"Which, on a side note, makes me wonder: why don't more manufacturers do a base maximum volume system? If your system reaches max with 0db test tone at the 50% volume mark, why even have another 50% above that? My only assumption would be you would need this extra real estate on your volume knob in the rare occassion you are listening to something mastered well below the 0db threshold."
Well, Vince, that's part of it, but mainly it's a game that consumer amp/receiver manufacturers have been playing for years and years. The main reason is that it makes it seem as if the amp has more power than it actually does. I can't tell you how many times I've seem salesmen make the statement "look, and it's only turned up halfway", when the damn thing was just about maxed out power wise.
BTW My amps go to "11".
 

Vince Maskeeper

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jan 18, 1999
Messages
6,500
Well, Vince, that's part of it, but mainly it's a game that consumer amp/receiver manufacturers have been playing for years and years. The main reason is that it makes it seem as if the amp has more power than it actually does. I can't tell you how many times I've seem salesmen make the statement "look, and it's only turned up halfway", when the damn thing was just about maxed out power wise.
I should have assumed this type of set up would be the work of the marketing interest rather than any desire to make their product WORK any better.
Oh- and on another note: It's funny, I've actually gotten a few emails from people saying that they can't get enough output from their receiver to push pro amplifiers... So, maybe different manufacturers are doing different things with tehir subwoofer preamp output?
I wonder how many complaints TomV has gotten re: the Fidek amplifier he packages with SVS units. I would assume the receivers out there which cannot push enough output for a [pro amp, would have the same problem with those amps.
confused.gif

Now whatever happened to the people who posted every other day about "Where do I find a subwoffer amplifier"? It seemed like there was a demand, but I don't think one of the companies I've send out info on has made a sale yet!
Oh, whoops, I also seemed to have made it to 1000+ posts! Odd.
-Vince
 

Vince Maskeeper

Senior HTF Member
Joined
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Messages
6,500
Strange, Vince, every post you've made on this thread is numbered 1005...
Wayne,
That's actually how it works: the post count number next to your name it TOTAL POSTS, not the number of posts at the time of the post. So, eveytime you post, it increments the number by 1: and every single place where you've posted (even 2 months ago) will display that number.
You'll notice the same for you, every post says 579 total for you: and all will change to 580 when you reply!
-Vince
------------------
What I Hate About Recording: Producers and Engineers who use meaningless words to make their clients think they know what's going on. Words like "punchy," "warm," "groove," "vibe," "feel." Especially "punchy" and "warm." Every time I hear those words, I want to throttle somebody." - Steve Albini
 

Seungsoo Hwang

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Aug 6, 1999
Messages
204
Hm well I think the reason those places havent got any sales is because they dont respond to anything?! I havent gotten a single call back or email from your source. Well I am going to pick up a Power-step up thingy (not sure what its exactly called) but it is supposed to step up the power so the receiver can send enough juice to get full power out of the amp? BTW I am running a CS800 from the subout of my pro-logic receiver to the INPUt 1/4" of the CS800. I get minscule amounts of volume, even with gain turned all the way up, so I hope this method works. Will report back when I do this.
 

Patrick Sun

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 30, 1999
Messages
39,660
Seungsoo, I think your pro-logic receiver is the problem here. It might not put out a high enough voltage level to be usable with the CS800. I think you're talking about that 10dBV-to-4dBU converter (going from pro to home electronics).
I didn't even know that DPL receivers had LFE outputs.
------------------
PatCave ; HT Pix ; HT Gear ; Sunosub ; Pat's DVDs ; Link Removed
 

Seungsoo Hwang

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Aug 6, 1999
Messages
204
That is what i had thought originally but we brought the amp over to Kevin Liedtkes house, who has a Kenwood VR3080, DD/DTS receiver. He got LESS output than me, and we turned up the sub all the way and stuff. Yeah well I have the Pioneer VSX-D307, one of the latest and the greatest in the Pro-logic days
wink.gif
, has outputs for DVD and Subwoofer out and stuff which is kinda weird. Does anyone know where I can get this power converter that Patrick is talking about online for cheap? It seems the local places like to charge more that id like.
 

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