Disturbing Trends in Forum (1 Viewer)

[Eric Sevigny]

-BruceD
I understand perfectly that room effects sound. What I don't understand is how anyone is supposed to use this knowledge of "room modes". What you are implying is that only speaker comparisons done in an acoustically dead room is acceptable, because every room as its own effect on sound. While scientifically this sounds very good, in the "real world" I don't think many are willing to do that. For a simple reason - speakers are to be listened in YOUR environment. It could very well sound excellent in a perfectly sonically dead room but poor in yours, where its important. But again, bloated bass sounds like bloated bass whether you know it's caused by the room or not, carefully positionning the speakers in your room to avoid what you think is excessive room interaction (to your ears) and doing comparisons after that is, IMHO, a perfectly reasonable aproach and one I would trust. That doesn't mean the one doing the testing has to know what dispersion characteristics his speakers have, or what the room resonance/interaction is like in this particular room. He just needs to respect some very basic principles (speakers away from back wall, etc) and listen for a while.
Well, I wrote all that and there still something I am not sure about:

No golden ear is going to correct for these room effects

What exactly would you do to compare 2 sets of speakers in a normal room then (i.e.room with some insulation, bass traps and what not)? You can't do anything to correct "room effect", there will always be some... Are you saying it's then impossible to make an educated opinion on which sounds better?
Again, my take on it is that you need to go with a trial and error approach, trust your ears and obey simple basic principles. Which essentially is what I was saying - a trained ear is a big part of it.

 

[EricHaas]

Well there IS a reason that we are seeing a backlash on this forum regarding SVS. It is inevitable. You cannot just have one brand dominate all discussion forever. Sooner or later, some people will just take a different position if for *no* other reason than to demonstrate that there is more than one legitimate viewpoint. The overall attitude about SVS does have much to do with the fact that they offer great performance for the price, but there is certainly much more to it than that. SVS has been deified here. The praise is delivered with an almost religious fervor. The analogy is especially appropro, as any dissenting opinions are met with swift and total rebuke. Furthermore, there is evidence that some of the moderators are uncomfortable with opinions at variance with the conventional wisdom when it comes to SVS. In fact, recently you can almost gauge the probability of a thread being closed by the number of anti-SVS posts in the thread. Once it reaches a certain quotient, thread closure becomes almost inevitable.

The attitude here is as much a product of groupthink as it is having anything to do with the product. SVS makes great subwoofers (*great* not good) at extremely reasonable prices. So too does Adire and Hsu, whose subs are very close in dollar/performance and offer a lower profile alternative for those who prefer it (yes I have heard all 3 brands). Yet Adire and Hsu get only the ocassional plug around here. That's because the superiority of SVS has become the "conventional" wisdom here. And yes, people can be very condescending to those who even acknowledge that another brand might be a viable alternative. I think that is fine and inevitable I suppose, though I am somewhat concerned that people newer to the hobby may not think so critically about what they are being told.

BTW, none of these observations have anything to do with Tom or Ron. They are both good businessmen who know how to market their products, and seem to have a genuine love of the hobby as well. Heck, I'd do exactly what they are doing if I ever set up shop in this hobby.

But some people around here need to lighten up about their brand loyalties, especially this one. Sometime this reminds me of the AMD v. Intel or Nvidia v. ATI discussions on the computer hardware groups. People can get really extreme in their defense of or opposition to a particular brand. But brand loyalties are pointless. As rational consumers, we buy what serves us well at a price we can live with. Which is why people need to totally respect the buying decisions of others, regardless of whether we agree with them or not.

 

[Rick Guynn]

Man, I must have missed a few posts.. I have seen the SVS troll, but I haven't seen any posts where others were harangued for *not* buying SVS. I hope that attitudes haven't/don't come to this.
And I don;t have an SVS myself.. I am patieantly awaiting my IB opportunity
Rick

 

[Frank Frandsen]

The problem I see is the two the SVS creators are manufacturers. Just because they have posted as regular members in the past does not mean it should continue. A SVS or manufacturers section should be set up so all members interested or wanting to discuss the sub can do so . The SVS creators could answer questions and people who want to surf the speaker/subwoofer section can do so without getting "SVS in the house" every other post.

They are sponsors and are needed to keep the HTF going. They have given great advice to alot of people. But As Eric said some negative SVS threads have been closed which leads one not to a X-files conspiracy but the feeling advertisers are tainting the impartiality of the forum.

FF

 

[Arron H]

This is just silly. Can we please get back to pertinent HT issues rather than senseless caviling? The querulous nature of this thread defeats the purpose of this forum which in my view is to discuss speakers and subs. Let's get back on track. Thanks in advance. :frowning:

 

[GabrielC]

Even though they are two manufacturers, they have never posted in a way of such an entity, that is in your face, pushing you to buy their product. They have many times over recommended subs based on the buyers limitations or preferences. The only time they have done anything remotely close is to defend themselves and their work as I'm sure anybody would do, especially against base-less, non-factual claims. These are the types of threads that are closed, especially when they range in the personal attack area, already spoken against in the rules of the forum.

It may not be a bad idea to have a forum for specific SVS related questions when the users have the sub, but from my impression of the post above, it seems as though you would like to remove the SVS name from this forum. If that wasn't the intent, my apologies, but doing something like asking them not to post at all would be about as good as blinding potential buyers. We come to this forum with questions about subs for purchase and use. If the actual manufacturers can answer them with good knowledge and truth, I think it's all the better for the buyer. If we removed the name of a brand, we limit the options of buyers as well. I admit, the SVS name is seen a lot around the forum, but if it's because they're an actual GOOD choice for the situation, then it only makes sense to recommend them, does it not?

 

[Lewis Besze]

Eric S.
The point Bruce was trying to make is, that one should be aware of one's room's accoustics,and it's possible effects on the sound, before one making any conclusions on a piece of equipment[especially of speakers],that might be being "reviewed" there.
I consider that just plain common sense,don't you?

 

[Jim_C]

>>The problem I see is the two the SVS creators are manufacturers. Just because they have posted as regular members in the past does not mean it should continue. A SVS or manufacturers section should be set up so all members interested or wanting to discuss the sub can do so . The SVS creators could answer questions and people who want to surf the speaker/subwoofer section can do so without getting "SVS in the house" every other post.
They are sponsors and are needed to keep the HTF going. They have given great advice to alot of people. But As Eric said some negative SVS threads have been closed which leads one not to a X-files conspiracy but the feeling advertisers are tainting the impartiality of the forum.>But As Eric said some negative SVS threads have been closed which leads one not to a X-files conspiracy but the feeling advertisers are tainting the impartiality of the forum

 

[Keith Mickunas]

I think the misperception regarding SVS fervor here is because some people are only looking at bits and pieces. There are a few trolls here who try to attack SVS on occasion. When this happens Tom and Ron, and some of their customers will defend SVS, and sometimes these threads end up looking pretty bad to people not aware of the history. Certain individuals have it out for Tom and Ron, that happens when you have a high profile like they do and overwhelming customer satisfaction.

Alan P's post as mentioned above by David Stein is one of these. He did not try out the SVS, and made a post with a very inflammatory subject, this most likely occurred because of an argument he had with one of the SVS guys in another thread. Then there is another guy who has frequently spouted off a lot of incorrect info at people and has gotten miffed about Tom and Ron and some others correcting him. So now he pushes Adire and Hsu at every opportunity even though he has stated he doesn't want a sub, won't own a sub, and believes his powered towers are the best way to go. When you aren't aware of the history you might not see what's really going on, but when you do know about it, you come to understand why people start putting the trolls down.

 

[Jim_C]

-BrudeD

Well, I once again couldn't disagree with you more. No, I don't beleive someone should "hit the books" before commenting on things like speaker imaging, musicality or bass response. What good would it do? I do however beleive in trained ears. A year ago I probably couldn't tell apart a Bose system from a B&W 801 based one, today I beleive I can make a good educated opinion on audio component because I have heard so many.

Knowledge is power. It also leads to intelligent and definable conversation.

The argument that your ear is the guide is a very good one. However, I don't have your ear. The only way that we could intelligently discuss the sound being created is with an understanding of the acoustic environment. Lots of people throw around words like bright, muddy, warm, boomy, etc. without understanding the reasons why that type of sound is occurring. A lot of those problematic sound issues can be fixed by knowing how the sound is created and how the room is affecting the sound.

Again, knowledge is power. It would seem that if you're passionate about something then you would want to know more about it.

>>What good would it do?

 

[Martice]

I think as we all try to better inform ourselves on the technicalities of our hobby, the mindless rantings will subside and we will engage in more informative discussions and customer satisfaction will be a personal choice as opposed to what everybody else says is the thing to have.

In the case of SVS, well they have an excellent product. This is where it seems most of their business comes from and most discussions relating to their subs take place. It is the official subwoofer of HTF after all. However, there are those that feel because they have what is generally excepted around here as the "best deal" for the money that they also have the best bass that money can buy. For the "JOE" that doesn't know any better, he automatically rushes to jump on the bandwagon not because they did any real comparison to justify there choices but because it's the HTF thing to do. I think this promotes the kind of behavior that makes some people short when it comes to subwoofer discussions. If the "JOE" knew or at least tried to understand what makes a good subwoofer good (believe me I'm as green as they come) then I believe they would be a lot more humble in their assessment of others choices and equipment and wouldn't act like a groupie when ever the SVS name is mentioned. If that's the case then all of the guys who have monster subs in the DIY section should be jumping around like idiots because it is they who have the best deals that money can buy.

 

[Jim_C]

Martice,

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The only thing I'd like to add is that SVS is very popular over at the Klipsch BB. Many die hard, never even look at another brand Klipsch owners have SVS products. They're very popular over at the spot as well. Granted, there is member cross-contamination between forums but I do believe that SVS has an expanded internet base.

 

[Martice]

Granted, there is member cross-contamination between forums but I do believe that SVS has an expanded internet base.

That may very well be the case but the point is not how much of an internet base they have (although this is still the official site of SV subwoofers) but the mindset of some people on this forum that behave in a manner that may sometimes work against the common good of the forum.

 

[Neil Joseph]

There is absolutely no room on this forum for any personal attacks. We all have different ideas and opinions when it comes to hardware and there is no need to take things personally. I have already removed one member for failing to observe these measures and will remove anyone else that has difficulty in following these simple instructions.

 

[Jim_C]

Agreed and point taken. I've edited my post to tone it down.

 

[Dan Joy]

GROUP HUG

 

[EricHaas]

I don't see any any personal attacks here, although I suppose a few posts are slightly borderline. Otherwise, I think the discussion is constructive.

For me, the central point here has little to do with Tom or Ron. The issue is that there is a perception that when you suggest or purchase another brand, you are labeled a j6p who at best is beset with blissful ignorance, and at worse will regret his decision to his dying day. That comes off as arrogant. I don't think the majority around here are like that, but a few are. IMO, these so-called "trolls" are reacting to that more than anything. I am not saying I agree with anything they are saying, but I do understand where they are coming from.

BTW, I think a separate SVS group would be very appropriate. At the Spot, for example, they have separate topics for different manufacturers, e.g. Denon, Onkyo. It is a useful resource for owners of those products, especially for troubleshooting. People would NOT be precluded from posting about SVS here or anywhere else, but it might have the effect of reducing the SVS related threads here from say 50% of the total down to maybe 20%? I do not think the TV and Ron should be confined in any way BTW. I think most of us appreciate their contributions even if their motives are in part market driven.

 

[Neil Joseph]

I don't see any any personal attacks here, although I suppose a few posts are slightly borderline. Otherwise, I think the discussion is constructive.

There have been some incidents in threads other than this one.

 

[Rick Guynn]

Eric, I disagree. I have seen plenty of posts where other brands were recommended or asked about and the individual was not pestered for being some sort of silly noob. I think recommending something you have bought and are very happy with, especially if you have owned something else to compare to, is far from climbing on someone for looking at something else. BTW I do not own an SVS and would therefore only be able to recommend that someone investigate it based on the numbers, I couldn't/wouldn't be able to pester them about how wonderful I thought it was.

And the 'so-called' trolls aren't 'so-called'. One in particular seemed to be going out of his way to make sure that he badmouthed SVS in just about every sub-related post. Ones like him are what had people scratching their head. After all, you repeat a lie often enough...

Frank, the thought that Ron and Tom should be in any way restricted is absurd. I urge you to look seriously at alot of the threads these two have posted on (ones that don't have SVS in the topic in the first place) and point to any where they are trying to 'push' their product on anyone. Only when they are asked directly do they get into SVS at all. People should not be punished for the stupidity of others.

-Rick

 

[Robert_Gaither]

The bad part is that most forums related to audio products starts with something such as "What's the biggest bang for the buck improvement for my HT?" or "How does sub "x" compare to sub "y"?" and the predictable response at almost all these type of questions are that people will recommend most likely something that A) is popular, B) something they own, C) posts great stat numbers, D) respected by a high number of their peers in a particular group, and E) relatively cheap in price. SVS fits most of these bills.
But is SVS the answer for all sub solutions? I don't think so but I recommend them simply because I'm a DIY and when I crunched numbers based on great 12" drivers in a ported cabinet, that are respected in the DIY sub community (Shiva, HSU, Blueprint, ACI, SAE, Nht1259, etc) there numbers hold. I usually recommend to people if at all possible to build a sub since it just simply is the easiest project in the DIY hobby (speaker related) since really it usually doesn't require soldering cross-overs just buy tools, decent amp/plate amp, driver, wood, and follow many common sense type of thinking. If DIY isn't your path then I usually recommend the Adire Shiva Rava or HSU VTF-2 (best budget all in ones imho) if the person lacks an amp, or a SVS or VMPS if they already have one (the best budget passive ones imho). Of course some like to buy subs in their local area that they could immediately return if there is a problem or non-satisfaction and for these people I usually recommend to try to buy a product that is being discontinued for newer model line (Velodyne CT series is a great buy if found right now for this type of purchase).
The problem with this hobby as a whole on this and other forums (I encounter this at every forum I go to...) is that people are usually satisfied with what they buy and if anyone recommends a similarly priced or cheaper product and touts that it's superior it seems to be interpetted as an attack on their intelligence, ego, and buying skills (after all, you missed an obvious bargain type of attack). Other than Bose (yes, I'm definitely biased against this product afterall, my email address is [email protected]), I personally believe that the most important thing people forget is that not everyone wants to deal with an online dealer, a larger (more accurate to performance, imho) size product, or something that looks different than traditional values type of home decor (I still have friends who won't even look at Boltz type of racks as an alternative to wood).
There are many things that dictate why people buy products and there is going to be several compromises (SAF, price, size, performance, appearance, color, woodgrain, etc) in reaching the end decisions but I see nothing wrong with recommending products until the buying decisions are made but we should never result to insulting on the decision made but correcting for any wrongful information that a poster may claim for all to benefit from.