Disturbing Trends in Forum

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Kevin Brashear, Apr 7, 2002.

  1. Kevin Brashear

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2002
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Gang,

    I'm starting to notice a disturbing trend in the Subwoofer/Speaker section of the forum.

    First of all, I want to thank everyone who posts for their invaluable advice. I've spent a lot of money (for me) over the past few years upgrading to a Tosh TN50X81, and most recently (last week) an Tosh HDTV box, Paradigm Mon 7's, CC-370, Mini Mons, and Velodyne CT-120 Sub. I wouldn't think of buying any piece of hardware without consulting the forum, and for that, I say "Many Thanks." It's comforting to search on the forum for information pertaining to a piece of hardward I'm thinking of buying, and reading non-biased opinions from folks who have already purchased the exact same stuff I'm considering. It's a huge help.

    Now, for the disturbing trend I'm noticing.

    There seems to be an ongoing battle between SVS and non-SVS sub buyers. My concern is not about the SVS sub vs. "whatever other sub" performance. My concern is that it's starting to look like whomever buys an SVS sub is a true audiophile, while those who don't buy an SVS sub are somehow either mistaken, don't care about their sound system, or just plain stupid. The beauty of this forum is the "unbiased" nature of the threads and posts. Now, it looks like some folks here are showing an almost angry bias towards SVS subwoofers. We've all watched the "Bose Bashing" go on and on, probably with good reason. As a former Bose owner, and now after having my Paradigms for a week, I understand the Bose bashing. But, I'm hearing now that anyone who dare whisper a question or concern about an SVS sub with be berated and belittled into submission, or even worse, get their account revoked by the powers that be. This is of great concern for me.

    I appreciate everyones knowledge and expertise in what can sometimes be a confusing universe of audio and video equipment. I am also amazed at the amount of members who can produce charts and graphs pertaining to decibel levels and speaker performance. It's absolutely great. But I don't like to see someone get humiliated or banned just because they ask a question about a particular product, or because they may choose one product over another one.

    If the forum is heading towards a more "commercial" format, someone let us know. Also, if people are getting banned from speaking freely, we need to know. The unbiased nature of the forum should not be tainted, and those of us who chose not to buy the "almighty SVS" subwoofer do not deserve to be humiliated by SVS owners or those who "peddle" the SVS product. If this message is offensive to anyone, I apologize. But, I think we deserve to know whether the forum is shifting gears in another direction.

    I appreciate everyone here and their expertise.

    Regards,

    Kevin
     
  2. dpippel

    dpippel HTF Premium Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2000
    Messages:
    5,364
    Likes Received:
    1,672
    Trophy Points:
    9,110
    Location:
    Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems
    Real Name:
    Doug
    Kevin - Don't know if it's a trend or not, but it certainly seems that some buttons are getting pushed on both sides of the SVS debate. On the positive side there appear to be MANY voices of reason as compared to the polarized members. This is encouraging and I expect the issue will eventually run it's course. I certainly hope so.

    The main reason I continue to participate here is because of the general lack of "audiophile snobbery". HTF isn't frequented by a bunch of elitists who look down their noses at anyone who hasn't taken out a second mortage to fund their audio/video obsession. Even the senior members of the forum seem to enjoy sharing in the enthusiasm of people who are just starting out or have modest gear, and are more than willing to provide pretty unbiased guidance and advice. I've learned a hell of a lot here because of the generosity others have shown in sharing their knowledge. Does the subwoofer issue signal a paradigm shift in tone at HTF? I don't think so. It will pass. There are just too many great people here for it to be otherwise. That's my opinion anyway.
     
  3. Kevin Brashear

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2002
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks Doug,
    You're probably right. The animosity will hopefully fade over time. It just disappoints me to see people with the same common interest/hobby get angry over one piece of equipment or another. Everyone in here probably has a system that ranks in the top 2 percent of Home Theater owners on the planet. [​IMG]
    The angry statements just make me a little disappointed.
     
  4. Matt Meyer

    Matt Meyer Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2002
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    As is the case with any opinion, it is just that an opinion. How many times have you heard someone who just bought a new $30,000 suv say yes I bought this and it sucks. Not very often are we willing to admit we made a mistake, at least not with current equipment. Whenever people ask for suggestions on forums everybody says "buy brand x it is the best you can buy for x$" or " buy brand y it blows away products costing 10 times as much" all based on what they own. So much of this hobby is subjective that we will never all agree on everything. So I guess I take all of the advice that I see here with a grain of salt(or a box). I just wish like a lot of you, that it wouldn't get so rabid and that some could just agree to disagree.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Matt
     
  5. David_Stein

    David_Stein Second Unit

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2002
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    let me start off by saying im mostly just a passive observer. perhaps if i can save the money up this summer i will be able to buy a nice sub, but thats irrelevant.

    i read this forum a lot, because i want to learn and I dont know much yet. so naturally i read a lot of about SVS v. other subs. here are some things ive noticed:

    1) what counts most: the opinions of T.V. and Ron are almost always friendly to other subs and more importantly educated on the subject. never once have i ever seen anything like "what is wrong with you, you should have gotten an SVS"

    2) in fact, i dont recall seeing anyone else saying something like either. what i see is a _lot_ of happy SVS customers who still have that big grin on their face no matter how long ago it was that they bought their sub. so naturally they are going to suggest what they love to other people.

    3) most of what people see as SV fanaticism has to do with the price/performance ratio. if what people say are to believed, a lowly $550 25-31PCi from SVS can compete with subs costing double or more. since most people here are concerned with money its understandable that they want to help others save money.

    4) it seems to me most of the criticism of SVS is made by people who dont own or never have listened to an SVS. alan p saying his paradigm "beat out" the SVS when he never listened to it. people being told stuff by salesman at B&M stores, etc etc. first thats trolling, second can you blame people who do own SVS from coming to its rescue?

    as for the bannings, i didnt know that went on, and i have no idea of the circumstances so i wont comment on that.
     
  6. rodneyH

    rodneyH Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    May 22, 2001
    Messages:
    844
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Personally I would feel much more guilty if I didn't talk about my SVS, I would feel like people are uninformed and waisting thier $$$ on inferior products, I am thankful to have learned about SVS since coming here and it replaced a M&K sub that I thought previously was a great sub. I am glad that peope told me to try SVS. Like I said, I would feel guilty if someone asked "what sub should I get?" and I didn't see someone respond "try an SVS, if you don't like it send it back", it is a risk free situation. That is what I did, I was planning on getting a Titan II or REL, but thought that the SVS is a NO risk deal, lets just say, it isn't getting sent back.
     
  7. Charles J P

    Charles J P Cinematographer

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2000
    Messages:
    2,049
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Omaha, NE
    Real Name:
    CJ Paul
    You bought a Velodyne!?! What are you, crazy? Just kidding. [​IMG] I agree, and I think Tom and Ron help to set a good examply by recomending subs from other companies when they think the user has a certain budget or purpose that they think would be better suited by another sub.
     
  8. BruceD

    BruceD Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 1999
    Messages:
    1,220
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Opinions are just that opinions. I like the free exchange of ideas and opinions, but I know how to differentiate.

    Where I draw the line is with uniformed opinion stated as fact. Especially from those posters who don't really have a clear grasp of fundamental acoustic principles.

    This is typically where the heated nature of a discussion originates (opinions not based on acoustical priciples). My recommendation? Go hit the books and educate yourself on acoustics.
     
  9. rodneyH

    rodneyH Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    May 22, 2001
    Messages:
    844
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bruce, I get more offended when people offer an opinion without even hearing a certain product (after all this is audio).
     
  10. Steve WC

    Steve WC Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2001
    Messages:
    180
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    When I was first looking for a sub I had a specific budget in mind. I posted on this forum and it was Tom V. who recommend the HSU VF-2 as the best sub in my price range. However, when the new 25-31Pci was introduced at a price point just slightly higher than the VF-2 i opted for the SVS.
    At no time at all did I feel like anyone on this forum was pushing me toward one product or another. I always have come to this forum to LEARN, which I feel I have been doing!![​IMG] [​IMG]
    Each product talked about on this forum seems to have their fans, but we all are ultimately responsible for what we buy.
    I think the only reason for somone to be baned are personal attacks. I believe that if somone bought something they think stinks, they should have the right to say so (as long as they truly own the product).
    We are all somewhat dependent on the honesty of the other members.
    Steve
     
  11. Eric Sevigny

    Eric Sevigny Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2000
    Messages:
    157
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    -BrudeD

    Well, I once again couldn't disagree with you more. No, I don't beleive someone should "hit the books" before commenting on things like speaker imaging, musicality or bass response. What good would it do? I do however beleive in trained ears. A year ago I probably couldn't tell apart a Bose system from a B&W 801 based one, today I beleive I can make a good educated opinion on audio component because I have heard so many.

    Consider this... Some speakers measure very well when you plot their anechoic chamber frequency response, yet doesn't sound good or lack musicality when you actually sit down and listen to them. Proof that the scientific aproach has its limits in the audio world. You can't just go with a frequency response to accuratly compare speakers. Just ask any speaker manufacturer.

    I agree with rodneyH. People making blanket statements on products they haven't heard is a lot more "offensive".
     
  12. Martice

    Martice Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2001
    Messages:
    1,077
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    This is how it goes.

    Member #1 I'm looking for a sub in the XXX price range.

    Member #2 You might want to look at SVS. They can't be beat price/performance wise.

    Member #3 I second that advice.

    Member #4 You can check out Adire Audio. They have highly competative products and some that rival some SVS subs.

    Member #5 Have you considered DIY? You can build a sub that will out perform any or most commercial offerings.

    Member #6 If you find that DIY is not your thing than I know of no other place that you can get DIY performance and parts with close to DIY cost than at Acoustic-Visions.com.

    We can play this scenario for everyone who wants to enquire about a sub in a given price range. It's when people start threads like my so and so sub made my do go into labor or my sub made my lights go out that I find silly. Infact, not too long ago someone posted a thread stating something like now they belong to the SVS group or something to that effect because they either ordered or received an SVS sub. Hey if your happy with your new sub I'm happy for you as well but I think a review would be more helpful to future members than a childish ranting because now you have a new subwoofer and you somehow now belong to a group of some sort. I think this is the type of mentality that the poster is talking about.

    There are those with SVS subs and those without. I think that if this community becomes more enlightened on the difference between bass and good bass they will understand that yes they caught a great deal by purchasing an SVS, Adire or HSU sub but they must understand that neither one invented "quality bass" but they have managed to bring it to the masses at "Joe" prices and seem to be striving to perfect their products even further. My pictures shake and rattle with the best of them although I don't own an SVS sub but personally feel that bass is no longer an issue for me just as the SVS or Adire owner feels.

    By no means should an SVS owner or Adire sub owner or even myself with my well documented rantings on my choice of subwoofers from Acoustic-Visions be muted because we don't want to hurt someones feelings but we must remember that this is the subwoofer section and if a person has made a choice other than the one that you've made then we should respect that and help them with whatever bass issues that they may have. If their issues mean that they are not happy with the performance of their sub and problems are beyond placement and calibration issues, then by all means make the unbiased and thoughtful recommendation that HTF members are known for.
     
  13. Ken Situ

    Ken Situ Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2000
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't have a SVS sub; I don't intend to get one either as I cannot afford such a beast. What I have is a Mission 750i. Having said as much and been around here for quite some time, I've never seen Tom or Ron having bad words for other subs, and never seen them push SVS's on poeple who don't need or intend to get one.

    However, what I've seen are some none SVS people, for whatever untold reasons, trying to flame poeple who are pro SVS by using misleading informations, or unjustifiable claims.
     
  14. Martice

    Martice Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2001
    Messages:
    1,077
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I can't speak for anyone else but I never said that Tom and Ron has done anything to that effect. Infact, I don't think that anyone has even mentioned Tom and Ron as being responsible for anything that would be considered unfair practice among members of this forum.

    Tom especially has been very helpful to many members on this forum and that's well documented. However, MAYBE the attacks on SVS isn't really meant to be directed at Tom or his product (although it has happened) and it may be directed to some of those who own SVS subs and how they conduct themselves when dealing with those who don't own them.

    I could be wrong and if so, I'm sure I'll be corrected. Personally I've haven't been disrespected on this forum in any matter that I've noticed.
     
  15. Ned

    Ned Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2000
    Messages:
    838
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think many of us would be a lot warmer to Velodyne if they didn't charge so much. Ya there's lots of overhead with dealers and advertising but when it comes time to buy, who cares about that stuff? SVS buyers like knowing that their money goes almost entirely into the parts used and the labor to build/design the products rather than padding dealers' pockets.
     
  16. kevin_tomb

    kevin_tomb Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2001
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hey I bought a velodyne CT-120 and am very happy with it. Sure it isnt the last word on 20HZ output and isnt the absolute best as far as clarity for music goes. BUT, and I say BUT in caps, I havent had ONE person who listened to it not go away impressed as hell. All it took was a ten minute drive to circuit city and $449 bucks later and a few minutes to hook up.......Shakes the room to about 25 or so HZ good enough to piss off my dogs easily...LOL...and DAMN my lights never flicker....[​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  17. Martice

    Martice Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2001
    Messages:
    1,077
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Here's to you Kevin [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Keep Bumpin!!
     
  18. Martice

    Martice Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2001
    Messages:
    1,077
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    A quote from the original poster:

     
  19. BruceD

    BruceD Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 1999
    Messages:
    1,220
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Eric,

     
  20. Arron H

    Arron H Second Unit

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2002
    Messages:
    332
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    DELETE
     

Share This Page