Disney+ Disney+ Streaming Service (Official Thread) (1 Viewer)

[David Weicker]

Here's the thing, though.

Disney's intellectual property has remained so valuable precisely because it's timeless. If they were to simply present the offensive material intact with an introduction saying "This is how things used to be, we'd never do it now," then it instantly dates Dumbo to 1941 and the film loses it's timeless appeal, and with that, it's financial value. Most media consumers in any era are more interested in contemporary material than classic or archival material. That's just the way it's always been. People look to entertainment that seems relevant to the lives they're leading, not for historical seminars.

I don't mean for that to sound harsh or to sound like I'm picking on you. But I think you might be missing the big picture for what Disney is trying to do here. They are trying to build a service that will fundamentally change the way their consumers interact with media. Part of that entails keeping the most valuable bits of their content culturally relevant and appropriate for their consumer base. There's a long history of Disney making changes to their films to keep them relevant to the times at hands; look no further than the original Fantasia being altered to remove racially insensitive stereotyping. Disney's goal has never been to make a film once and have it remain static for all time, like a museum piece. Their goal is to make films that remain relevant for generations. In 2019, showing young kids stereotypical material about Jim Crow as entertainment is probably an option that many parents would be uncomfortable with. That means that Dumbo is no longer appropriate for most children, and therefore, no longer a valuable property.

While I'm clearly in favor of film preservation, this is something different. Disney is not suggesting that they're going to throw these trims into a dumpster. They're simply tweaking the film to modern standards for their modern service. I honestly think it's an interesting approach. They own the content, they're clearly within their rights to treat it however they'd like. High quality home video versions already exist with the original version, so it remains available to consumers who wish to view the film from a historical lens.

I think this is a wholly different manner than releasing a censored version for physical purchase. This, to me, is no different than a TV station editing a film for content, which happens every day of the week already.

But they aren’t talking about withholding Dumbo from their service.

They are planning on making a censored version the official version for decades to come. Disney+ will be the primary way to consume disney content.

It is a horrible precedent


And within the film, he’s not called Jim Crow.

 

[Cranston37+]

I had never seen the scene before, but this thread made me watch it on the YouTubes.

Yeah...

My official stance on it is if I had kids I would prefer them to watch Dumbo without that scene and if it's me watching it, I have bigger problems in life than to worry about not being able to see the Jim Crow scene in Dumbo.

Bring on November.

 

[Sam Posten]

So I just don't get why we're not so quick to understand that about streaming.

Uh, cause you can't buy this content elsewhere?

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Uh, cause you can't buy this content elsewhere?

That’s not strictly true. We were discussing Dumbo being edited on Disney+. One can easily purchase the uncut version on a variety of physical media formats and on a variety of digital services.

So I don’t see how Dumbo being edited on Disney+ while remaining uncut on disc and iTunes is any different from any other movie that gets edited for television.

 

[Cranston37+]

That’s not strictly true. We were discussing Dumbo being edited on Disney+. One can easily purchase the uncut version on a variety of physical media formats and on a variety of digital services.

So I don’t see how Dumbo being edited on Disney+ while remaining uncut on disc and iTunes is any different from any other movie that gets edited for television.

To play devil's advocate, I'd bet cash money that the edited version will quietly replace the current version on services like iTunes, even if you have already purchased it...

 

[Matt Hough]

Matt,

Which of such titles are you talking about? Fox stuff?

No, stuff like Melody Time, Make Mine Music, So Dear to My Heart, Tonka: things we don't already have on Blu-ray.

 

[Peter Apruzzese]

To play devil's advocate, I'd bet cash money that the edited version will quietly replace the current version on services like iTunes, even if you have already purchased it...

It's a guarantee that they will do that.

 

[Matt Hough]

It's a guarantee that they will do that.

Absolutely. That will allow Fantasia to have a kissing cousin in the censorship game.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

To play devil's advocate, I'd bet cash money that the edited version will quietly replace the current version on services like iTunes, even if you have already purchased it...

And we'll jump off that bridge when we get there. iTunes has a very good track record of refunding purchases when that happens, so if it does, write to iTunes and they'll refund you.

 

[Cranston37+]

And we'll jump off that bridge when we get there. iTunes has a very good track record of refunding purchases when that happens, so if it does, write to iTunes and they'll refund you.

That is very true

 

[Jason_V]

And we'll jump off that bridge when we get there. iTunes has a very good track record of refunding purchases when that happens, so if it does, write to iTunes and they'll refund you.

Is refunding even the issue on this? I don't think so. Broadcast television is different in my book: anyone can be watching at any time and there are format and "morality" considerations in play. With streaming and this in particular, it sets a precedent to edit anything out of any film or TV show on any service. Any assertion of this being the "complete" library will be instantly disprovable. The original version of Dumbo will not be available. Therefore, not complete.

As long as each item censored comes with a disclaimer, that's fine. I'll avoid it and pull down my Blu-ray which has the scene in tact. What will happen, as has already been mentioned, is this new version will supplant the original as "official," thereby losing the original forever. I'm not okay with that in any context.

 

[Arthur Powell]

I was also hoping to see a large number of episodes of Walt Disney Presents/Wonderful World of Color/Wonderful World of Disney as well as the original Mickey Mouse Club - two shows with many episodes unreleased on DVD. I was tentatively planning on subscribing, but now I want to wait until there is a more comprehensive listing of what will be offered. Like others have said, I'm not interested in paying money to stream material that I already own on DVD and blu-ray. I know that I'm the outlier - I don't give a rip about Star Wars and Marvel, but I would be excited to see the complete Elfego Baca, Swamp Fox, and Texas John Slaughter (to give a few examples).

 

[Arthur Powell]

I'm still skeptical about the claims about "Dumbo." The Hollywood Reporter article asserts that Disney will be taking certain actions, but it doesn't mention at all having made any effort to have a Disney spokesperson confirm the reports. It is only reiterating a claim made in a clickbait article from Board Walk Times, and there the source of the claim is an unnamed "source close to the situation." Until the matter is confirmed by a named authoritative source, I'm regarding this as a rumor. I will say though that I wouldn't put it past Disney to do such a thing. With a history of censorship including "Make Mine Music," "Melody Time," "Saludos Amigos," and the "Pirates of the Caribbean" theme park attraction, I wouldn't be surprised to see "Dumbo" added to the list.

As for "Song of the South," did anyone actually expect to see the film made available? Given Iger's expressed sentiments about the film, I would have been shocked to see it on Disney+ (and not shocked in a Claude Rains way). I also wouldn't expect to see "Cannibal Capers," "Mickey's Mellerdrammer," and the Donald Duck WW2 cartoons (particularly "Der Fuehrer's Face" and "Commando Duck").

 

[Josh Steinberg]

Broadcast television is different in my book: anyone can be watching at any time and there are format and "morality" considerations in play.

For me, I'm choosing to look at Disney+ (and pretty much any streaming service) as the 21st century equivalent of a 20th century broadcast network. I don't get upset with HBO Go/Now offering cropped versions of 2.40:1 movies, and I'm not likely to be upset with Disney editing content that's on Disney+. Maybe I'm being unfairly forgiving; it's a new world and we're all still trying to adjust to it. And maybe I am being too quick to give up some access in exchange for convenience.

I also have to admit that my views on this were changed by Fantasia. For years, I had read about Disney self-censoring Fantasia and felt that it was unjustified, but I had never seen the unedited clip that had been removed. A few years ago, I did actually see the clip that they cut out, and it really altered my perspective. It was more offensive than I had imagined, but also, completely unnecessary to the rest of the story being told. Seeing that clip integrated with the film immediately took me out of the segment and made it very difficult for me to get back in. It instantly changed Fantasia from a timeless work to something hopelessly stuck in 1940. It made the sequence, and by extension the film, seem more like a dated relic than the living, breathing thing that Walt had always envisioned for that film.

I think Disney is unique among the major studios in viewing their classic animated features as living, breathing, timeless works meant to be enjoyed by contemporary generations. We see that in all of the other changes they make in how they present the films; even when they're not removing content, they're updating the look, removing grain, and making other cosmetic changes that make the films seem less tied to the eras in which they were originally produced. Maybe I should be more bothered by this than I am. I can't claim to hold the only "correct" point of view on the subject. But it seems entirely consistent with the way Disney has been operating in recent years, so maybe it's just that this is what I've expected all along.

 

[Jason_V]

Seeing that clip integrated with the film immediately took me out of the segment and made it very difficult for me to get back in. It instantly changed Fantasia from a timeless work to something hopelessly stuck in 1940. It made the sequence, and by extension the film, seem more like a dated relic than the living, breathing thing that Walt had always envisioned for that film.

Isn't that the thing about art, though? It's always rooted in the time it's made. No art is truly timeless. It reflects the time it is made. Does that mean we go through and change all sorts of art-movies, music, paintings, sculpture, etc.-to make that work more appropriate for today? No. Do we understand how art works and be adult without getting our pants all knotted up? Yes.

 

[Cranston37+]

Isn't that the thing about art, though? It's always rooted in the time it's made. No art is truly timeless. It reflects the time it is made. Does that mean we go through and change all sorts of art-movies, music, paintings, sculpture, etc.-to make that work more appropriate for today? No. Do we understand how art works and be adult without getting our pants all knotted up? Yes.

The cold hard fact though is that Dumbo is a product. It was made to be sold like a Big Mac. This is something they have to do to sell as many as possible. It's not as noble as you might wish it was, but there it is...

 

[Jason_V]

The cold hard fact though is that Dumbo is a product. It was made to be sold like a Big Mac. This is something they have to do to sell as many as possible. It's not as noble as you might wish it was, but there it is...

I never said it wasn't a product and no they don't. If that's the case, then Michaelangelo's David needs to be covered up to get more tourists to see it. The art at the Louvre also needs to be covered because all of that is a product, too.

 

[Cranston37+]

I never said it wasn't a product and no they don't. If that's the case, then Michaelangelo's David needs to be covered up to get more tourists to see it. The art at the Louvre also needs to be covered because all of that is a product, too.

The difference being that Dumbo's Michaelangelo is still working, has sold stock in his company, is looking to sign up as many people as he can to his sculpture service, and can do whatever he pleases with the product he made.

 

[Jason_V]

The difference being that Dumbo's Michaelangelo is still working, has sold stock in his company, is looking to sign up as many people as he can to his sculpture service, and can do whatever he pleases with the product he made.

All true. They can do anything they want with it. And I will use this as example #1 why streaming will always be inferior to physical media. I know some people will roast me and that's fine.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I also have to admit that my views on this were changed by Fantasia. For years, I had read about Disney self-censoring Fantasia and felt that it was unjustified, but I had never seen the unedited clip that had been removed. A few years ago, I did actually see the clip that they cut out, and it really altered my perspective. It was more offensive than I had imagined, but also, completely unnecessary to the rest of the story being told. Seeing that clip integrated with the film immediately took me out of the segment and made it very difficult for me to get back in. It instantly changed Fantasia from a timeless work to something hopelessly stuck in 1940. It made the sequence, and by extension the film, seem more like a dated relic than the living, breathing thing that Walt had always envisioned for that film.

The difference between Fantasia and Dumbo is that the sequence with the crows is a huge part of the plot of that film. I don't understand how they can edit that sequence to remove the crows and have the rest of the scene still make sense.