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Disney "Digital Restorations" (1 Viewer)

Adam_S

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agreed Chuck, digitally changing the animation is a very undesirable thing, I have hope, judging by the Pinocchio screen shots that hi definition releases won't have this problem. though we'll have to wait another nine years or so to find out in cinderella's case.
 

Chuck Pennington

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MERMAIDLINES.jpg

PANLINESCOLOR.jpg

PINOCCHIOWHALE.jpg

PINOCCHIOLIGHT.jpg
 

Kris Z.

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That's quite a big difference in that last Pinocchio shot. In the first it actually looks like a shining candle, in the second one it looks like... nothing.

And I just have to wonder what the problem is at Lowry's that they simply can't have clean white anywhere in the movies they "restore", but that it always has to turn into a grey or light blue shade. Star Wars suffered from the exact same thing. Previously I thought they were supposed to be the best, but after seeing more and more of the movies they've worked on I've really changed my mind. Too much "manipulating", not enough "restoring".
 

Jay Pennington

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Thank you for taking the time to do that, much appreciated.

I think many of these "changes" are simply due to the older release using a darker print with higher contrast. That is why the shadows look darker, the lines thicker, and the light sources brighter.

As for missing parts of outlines, the areas you point to are missing on both versions. They're just easier to see now with the higher clarity.

I agree the candle has lost something...perhaps when originally photographed there was an extra pass of just the light in that area that was allowed to overexpose on the negative.

You have a point with those Tinkerbell brush strokes, though. Do all the surrounding frames have these? Were they supposed to represent spotches of light falling on her dress? Or was it just one cel that was sloppily painted? They don't seem to be drybrushed accents on the top of the cel, as was sometimes done (like the tip of the feather in Pinocchio's cap, the fine detail of which can be better appreciated in the righthand example).

For the record I don't think these re-dos are without problems. Not by any means.

But...

I feel that much of this perception of loss is analagous to the old vinyl vs. CD debate. "Warm" vs. "crisp". You like what a couple of generations of film processing does with the image. Nothing wrong with that.
 

Chuck Pennington

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I completely disagree. These are not transfers from film but from a computer that has removed all vestiges of it being a film. The backgrounds have been recreated and lightened not in accordance with the way it was originally photographed and timed. So all the prints ever made and photos in books were incorrect, but the new DVD's are correct, right?

The Tinkerbell brushstrokes are removed from every frame.

What's your opinion on the lines disappearing and thinning in THE LITTLE MERMAID? Oh, and what do you have to say about this?

CINDERELLAwhites.jpg
 

Reagan

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I don't know where the "Sleeping Beauty was restored on film" thing started, but the restoration documentary shows an all-video (and a strange one at that) restoration.

-Reagan
 

Chuck Pennington

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No, it shows a Cinesite digital restoration that was recorded back to film - and at 4K resolution, I believe. Cinesite also did SNOW WHITE, but those were the only two done at full film resolution and recorded back to film. The Lowry and other digital restorations were not put back to film and when projected were projected digitally.
 

ScottR

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I guess no one has thoughts on my Snow White question. It's the only thing that really bothered me, since it happens a dozen times during the film. The fades look more like a television program now.
 

Jay Pennington

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Actually I was going to ask you what you're trying to illustrate with those grabs of Cinderella on the stairs. I don't see anything wrong...assuming they're not the exact same frame in each grab, that is.
 

Chuck Pennington

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You don't see how all the colors are different on the DVD, how the outlines of characters all but disappear and white is now gray?
 

Jay Pennington

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No, except for the white/gray. But "white" cel paint was rarely pure white. We'd have to get the color model sheet and see if it says "whites white".

Again, it's problematic to assume the CAV laserdisc is an accurate frame of reference.

Anyway, I don't mean to troll. I'd have stopped posting before now if I hadn't been asked direct questions. I don't want to discourage vigiliance in these matters. If folks like you didn't keep the studios on their toes, who knows what else they'd try to pull.

Here's one for your side: when you get your sources lined up, compare the scene of the King fantasizing about giving a grandson a piggyback ride. Last time this restoration issue came up, caps revealed that the relative positions of the backgrounds and the characters were no longer the same. I'm right with ya on decrying changes such as that.
 

ChristopherDAC

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From an a-priori standpoint we can assert that the veil in that last shot should probably be white, not dove-grey, although to make reliable judgements the composite-video input the captures are being made from needs to be calibrated to a reference LD to get the colour and monochrome values correct, likewise the DVD-capture programme.

The extreme sharpness and regularity of the "new" outlines is definitely not right. It's not merely a question of the old transfer being blurred, or the composite video lacking resolution. (If I don't know by this time what the effects of film-to-video transfer of cel animation look like, I never will.) Hand-drawn cel animation is drawn by hand, and should look it. Where a line is present, it's meant to be distinct ; if it weren't, the paint would have been applied with no demarcation line, as is done in shading.
 

MatthewA

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I have 35mm IB Tech prints of Pinocchio and Cinderella. I don't know what years they were printed, nor have I viewed them yet (getting my 35mm gear to work has been one of those on-again off-again things). I'll tell you what I observe when I do.
 

Jay Pennington

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Thanks for that confirmation...it was something I'd wondered about at the time (but forgot when I recalled it here earlier ;) )

BTW Laserdisc is a composite format.
 

Chuck Pennington

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"From an a-priori standpoint we can assert that the veil in that last shot should probably be white, not dove-grey, although to make reliable judgements the composite-video input the captures are being made from needs to be calibrated to a reference LD to get the colour and monochrome values correct, likewise the DVD-capture programme."

I am not using composite video capturing. I am not adjusting the brightness/contrast values at all from the Laserdisc. Put in the DVD yourself and you tell me what you see on your calibrated equipment.

-----

"No, except for the white/gray. But "white" cel paint was rarely pure white. We'd have to get the color model sheet and see if it says "whites white".
Again, it's problematic to assume the CAV laserdisc is an accurate frame of reference."

Ah, and we want it to look like the cels, or what it was intended to look like on the screen? Again, I direct you to the Technicolor issue and how the artists had a chart showing what colors would look like once printed in Technicolor.

Oh, and if you were stating that the 1989 CAV Laserdisc wouldn't be the end all reference, I agree. I don't have that set yet, and it is on that set that I am waiting to post all the screen capture comparisons. However, this is what is printed on a page inside the collector's book of the 1995 CINDERELLA CAV box set.

CINDERELLAnotes.jpg


--------------

"Here's one for your side: when you get your sources lined up, compare the scene of the King fantasizing about giving a grandson a piggyback ride. Last time this restoration issue came up, caps revealed that the relative positions of the backgrounds and the characters were no longer the same. I'm right with ya on decrying changes such as that."

Well, that wasn't an exact frame - it was part of a cycle of animation where the background was different, then it was the same when the foreground animation changed, etc. I tried to get frames as exact as possible - and many times they are the exact frame - but VLC is very hit-or-miss on screen captures. Things like color, density, brightness, etc. - those things can definately be judged, a frame or two off or not.

Again, I don't think the 1995 transfer should have been used for the DVD. I am stating that a new hi-def transfer of the restored elements with some minor spot removal would have been perfect, as transfer technology has improved a lot since 1995.
 

ScottR

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A similar Restoration piece was included in the 1992 Pinocchio vhs collector's box. And as we know now, that restoration wasn't as perfect as the piece would have you believe.
 

Chuck Pennington

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You mean the 1993 Pinocchio VHS collector's box. Could this be that to which you were referring?

PINOCCHIO93notes.jpg


The important thing to note is that the film restoration phase was identical and routine. The differences came into play with the video processing. I do not like the way the 1993 PINOCCHIO looks, no, but the 1940 trailer looks wonderful! Often when films and ancillary elements are restored or preserved the same film's trailers, textless titles, etc. are also preserved. It looks like whatever processing they did to account for those 5,000 hours of video work was spared from the trailer. Such a shame...

I should also compare other scenes in the film with more color between the different versions.

Oh, and has anyone listened to the 1993 soundtrack or any other after that point? It sure sounds like there has been some orchestral sweeting of the track with newly recorded music?
 

ChristopherDAC

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If you're not capturing composite video, then exactly where are you getting these LD caps? Anyway, you have to set up the crossbar of your capture application so that white is white and black is black, and primary colours are the right values. If you don't do that, your captures are meaningless — there's no such thing as a "raw" video capture. Incidentally, some lower-end LD players output sync at the wrong amplitude, producing luminance distortion in certain AGC circuits.
 

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