Discussion on the HTF article on studios dumbing down the DVD format (1 Viewer)

[Dave Gilbert]

If the studios are so concerned about the loss of profits, consider the buying habits of the enthusiast vs. J6P. True, the enthusiast is far outnumbered by headcount, but how many of us own hundreds, or even thousands, of DVDs?

I grew up with VHS, and I only have 30 or so, collecting dust, after two decades. I got my first DVD player less than a year and a half ago, and I already have 4x more DVDs than video tapes, with no end in sight (providing OAR is available).

I've got one of the smaller collections around here. If you tallied the number of DVDs owned by enthusiasts vs. the number of DVDs owned by J6Ps, studios may be barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Andrew_Sch]

I know that all-OAR is basically impossible, I was just trying to make a point we don't do to other art forms what we do to movies, and in a perfect world where the majority of people understood, the should be no option.

 

[Chris Wagner]

I am in agreement that Films should only be presented in the framing of original intent by the artists involved.

Forget "P&S on the fly", P&S on one side OAR on the other, two releases (one P&S, one OAR), P&S and OAR on the same side (even if it is dual-layered) and, horror of all horrors, P&S only. Quality of the presentation will most always suffer. These are all simply a waste of the studio's resources.

The only choice the consumer should make is to purchase the film or not.

Butchering is not an option!

 

[Marc Colella]

Butchering is not an option!

Most directors don't seem to mind. If they don't care, why should we?

 

[DaveF]

Rich - I asked about the Pan and Scan on the Fly DVD option a while back. Short answer: it's very limited and the pans are choppy.
There are recurring comments about buying only widescreen, and waiting for the dominance of widescreen televisions. That ignores both movies in formats other than 16x9, such as 4x3 (Citizen Kane), 2.35:1 (Titanic), and older non-widescreen television shows (ST:TNG, X-Files, Buffy anyone?).

In my experience, Joe 6P wants to shove a disk in the player and watch a movie. Period.

Yeah, those people who just want stuff to work are weird. Sorta like me; I've no real interest in DD, DTS, anamorphic, bitrate, compression method. I just want to enjoy a movie.
I just wish I could buy a movie with equivalent ease, and not have to pay attention to fullscreen, widescreen, modified, standard, anamorphic labels.

 

[Rain]

Most directors don't seem to mind. If they don't care, why should we?

What an unfortunately negative attitude to take. Besides, what makes you think directors don't care? More likely, many of them don't have the clout to do anything about it.

 

[Matt DeVillier]

I don't know about the Walmarts elsewhere, but mine always has both WS and P&S versions when there are two different releases for a title. And I live in the middle of nowhere

 

[David Tolsky]

I also have mixed feelings about this article. Let's face it, 98.5% of all televisions in this country (and other countries) have 1:33 aspect ratios. Let's also face the fact that we as home theater OAR enthusiasts ARE THE MINORITY BY A LONGSHOT. Several Home Video Studio heads have admitted that home video sales account for up to 40% of a studios revenue. FORTY PER CENT!!! Do you think that they get this kind of revenue by catering to the minority OAR enthusiasts?

When VHS was the only "affordable" movie format, there wasn't much complaining about full frame because EVERYONE owned a 1:33 set. When you watched a broadcast movie, it was never letterboxed, it filled the screen, so that's what J6P got accustomed to. The film die-hards went to laserdisc and got some widescreen letterbox that way, at $40 bucks a pop, a helluva lot more for box sets.

I work with a cinematographer who looked me in the eye and told me he will only buy full screen dvds for his 4:3 set. Now at first that shocked me. But knowing and trusting my friend, I had to look at it from his perspective. He just hated looking at the bars and said you need to get the version that fits your screen.

I've been an OAR guy forever. I got into filmmaking because of the grandness of the screen size (funny that I ended up in television, but that's the way it worked out). You can put me in the catagory of Pro Choice. Widescreen movies deserve a widescreen display. J6P (that's 98.5% if you didn't get that from the top) has the right to fill his screen. I won't buy a full frame title UNLESS it is the only choice available and I want to get it autographed by someone (as was the case with Private Benjamin).

 

[Peter Apruzzese]

Ron (and Jack),

Nice job on the article. I can't find anything to disagree with in it.

I think the thing we need to stress the most to the studios is the potential for educating the consumer. As has been stated, a simple graphic or moving demonstration (such as the one on Die Hard) of the difference would go a long way toward helping non-OAR consumers understand.

 

[TheLongshot]

Of course the public should have a choice, but not a choice of how a film is presented. The choice comes at the checkout counter. You either buy, or you don't. If one wants a particular movie, then one should have to accept it in the proper form, even if that form does not match one's TV screen.

Umm... Not exactly right Obi. The public has a choice of whatever the studios decide to sell us. They could cut it however they want, turn it upside down and make it look funny colors. It is their right. The question would be, would the consumer buy it? In my outrageous case, no. Thing is, tho, is that there is a market for a P&S version.

I'd like to see you try to convince the marketing wonks at the studio that they should only put OAR discs out. They'd be worried about how much money they'd be losing for not having a P&S version out there. You are right about one thing, this is a business. It is all about maximizing profits, and the way to do that, as far as the studios see, is to put out two versons.

Remember, the P&S folks are just as vocal as we are. Look at Disney.

All I require is that the studios put out the video in OAR, and have at least the original audio (something most people forget in these arguments). What else is on there is no consequence to me.

Jason

PS - To the guy arguing about P&S on the fly. As far as I know, it isn't being used because 1) P&S often involves zooming in on the picture, which OTF doesn't support 2) It is just easier to make a regular P&S transfer, which needs to be done anyways for TV, than to try to program OTF, which is only good for the DVD version.

Personally, i don't care about #1, but I understand the argument for #2.

 

[Rain]

I work with a cinematographer who looked me in the eye and told me he will only buy full screen dvds for his 4:3 set. Now at first that shocked me. But knowing and trusting my friend, I had to look at it from his perspective. He just hated looking at the bars and said you need to get the version that fits your screen.

With all due respect, your friend is in the wrong line of work and should seek some vocational counselling.
Another thing that seems to be getting less "airtime" in this thread is the fact that J6P can be educated. J6P wants full frame because he doesn't really realize what he's missing, at least that has been my experience. I've converted a few to pro-widescreen in a matter of 5 minutes, simply by showing a direct comparision. The problem is that, for years, we had P&S only on VHS and many people got used to seeing movies that way. Once someone becomes aware of just how bad P&S looks, they won't be able to not see it next time.

 

[Jack Briggs]

"Most directors don't seem to mind. If they don't care, why should we?"

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[Stu Rosen]

I couldn't agree more with Jason (2 posts above). Frankly, I could care less what my friends and neighbors watch -- I've tried to explain the benefits, and most people don't care, or they get that uncomfortable look in their eyes that comes when a person is confronted with a zealot...

My own OAR-only tastes aside, I completely accept that some people just prefer P&S. It ain't gonna change. As long as my widescreen tastes are taken care of, other people have the right to their positions, no matter how misguided they may be.

Studios will sell whatever people want. You can claim the studios are mistaken. You can claim people are dumb. I don't buy it. Studios are in the business of locating consumer desires and satisfying them. They're certainly not in the business of "educating" their customers that they're wrong in those desires.

 

[Marc Colella]

What an unfortunately negative attitude to take. Besides, what makes you think directors don't care? More likely, many of them don't have the clout to do anything about it.

Just being realistic.

Speilberg has clout (owns part of Dreamworks)... doesn't care though.

If David Lynch (who isn't exactly a major revenue generator for the studios) can dictate that his DVDs will not contain chapter stops (for 3 DVDs from 3 different studios) do you honestly believe the names like Woody Allen, Scorsese, Lucas, etc wouldn't have much control?

Directors also care about the bottom line... not just the studios.

 

[Jesse Skeen]

Though I agree that if people had widescreen FORCED on them they'd eventually just accept it, the real problem is the separate releases that have been put out, forcing everyone to make sure they're buying the version they want. Putting BOTH formats on ONE disc solves these problems a lot better and is the ONLY way pan and scan versions should be put on the market.

 

[CameronS]

I have a few things to say about the education of the general public.

Over the past 6 or 7 years, I've worked for a couple of video stores and even Best Buy (ugh) for a short time. Let me tell you, I've had plenty of encounters with Joe 6 Pack over OAR, widescreen, black bars, etc.

Now these encounters were not just 5-minute discussions. I'm talking about full blown, in-depth, explanations over the reasoning behind widescreen and OAR. Back when I worked at Blockbuster several years ago (and before DVD), a co-worker, who I converted to the OAR camp, and I decided to order Widescreen VHS copies of various movies on our own to rent out in the store. This was also before Blockbuster had "Widescreen" sections. We even set up an entire Widescreen section on the New Release wall. We cut out little "why Widescreen" advertisements that came with some of the VHS tapes, and stuff we found elsewhere and posted them near the Widescreen section to also help educate.

When dealing with the general public, I have almost found it to be useless! Most of my many OAR discussions with customers have me shaking my head in disbelief and frustration. I can't count how many times a customer has said to me "That's stupid", or just looked at me with this "What the hell are you talking about" expression on their face.

There are a few people willing to listen and understand, most of them were usually co-workers, but the majority were just ignorant about the subject. These people are not true film followers, they watch the occasional movie for recreation in their spare time. They do not take issues like this seriously. But when they are large in numbers, they are powerful.

I somewhat agree with a few here on the forum that say education of Joe 6 Pack is futile. I think a more powerful action would be to demand what we want.

Don't forget, the future is looking bright. HD-DVD is on the way and 4:3 TVs are on the way out.

 

[Dan Keefe]

I am getting tired of fighting this fight. But I know that is often the people who are the loudest that usually get their way, not neceesarily the majority. First off I have to say that maybe the reason that Pan N Scan sells so much is the fact that boxes are not clearly labelled. I have seriously spent upwards of 30-45 seconds to determine if I have the right version. For example, I hesitated to buy the new Mummy 2 pack the other day because The mummy was claerly labelled Widescreen, but The Mummy returns was noit labelled at all. We have to collectively think of a plan of attack. It has to be a concentrated effort. I particularly like the hardcore idea of bombing the stores en masse and buying the pan and scan titles, only to return them a day later and say I wanted widescreen not this garbage. If we all organized and picked a particular date to do it, the number of returns for the P&S would be large enough to register on somebodies radar...

just my too sense.

Count me in...

dan

 

[Rich Malloy]

Rich - I asked about the Pan and Scan on the Fly DVD option a while back. Short answer: it's very limited and the pans are choppy.

Of course, it's very limited, but I'm saying we should urge all studios to adopt it. If we see the tide turning against us - and it most definitely has - then we need to come up with some options. And the only one that I see that would address every concern of the studios and still allow us to have widescreen transfers for every title is "pan and scan on the fly".

What I'm saying is that you guys are pissing against the wind with this "OAR-only" crusade. We've already lost. I'm convinced of that. There will never be an "OAR only" policy from the major studios for mainstream movies. You can forget it.

Now, what's wrong with P&S-on-the-fly? Why isn't this the best and easiest alternative for the studios? What do we have to lose with such a format and why wouldn't the studios go for it?

 

[Rich Malloy]

[Yes, yes, I know that P&S-proper would look better than P&S-on-the-fly, assuming you've got a good pan-and-scanner doing the panning and scanning for the transfer - but would J6P notice a difference?]

 

[CameronS]

buying the pan and scan titles, only to return them a day later and say I wanted widescreen not this garbage.

LOL!
OK! Count me in!