Direct from Hollywood: Widescreen DVD releases under the gun! Here's the Answer! (1 Viewer)

[LarryDavenport]

If DVD goes Pan & Scan there is no point in me buying discs. I might as well have stayed with VHS.
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These chicks know how to party! - MoJo JoJo

 

[MaxY]

OK Now you guys can stop calling me Chicken Little for going on about this and start calling me Nostrodamus instead.
Seriously though....
LD was a much smaller market place and yet there were many many dual releases of widescreen and Pan & Scan. Not both in the same package but two versions released. You had to pick the right one.
Right now as 16x9 sets are becoming more and more common it would be a huge blunder for the studios to stop doing widescreen. If they wanted to do releases with both in the same package or even separate packages well fine.
I do Like Ron's Idea about the Widescreen explaination at the begining of each disc I would even say make it forced.
Currently there are several DVDs (The Underneath, ST 4, Die Hard 5*****, Dressed To Kill and a few others) that have great extras that show and explain exactly what is happening when a movie is taken from Widescreen to 4x3.
There needs to a be a huge push towards education.
I would also like to suggest that before such a decsion were made there needs to be a comparsion between how many people bought a widescreen title and did not complain about to how many did complain?
If they were to start selling Pan & Scan Only would their sales go down? Would more people start complaining about P&S versions?
Sorry the country is moving widescreen and if someone don't like widescreen then they can stick.......to VHS and HBO.
Max
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[CRyan]

Yep, most of us here at the HTF have known this day would come. I feel like a broken record at this point, but this HAS been a continuing and ongoing concern for many of us.
Thanks Ron for the post. It is obvious now, as it was to many a year ago, that this is our next battle concerning DVD. There is no other with greater importance.
VOTE with your dollar and write you local stores. Not email, but a well written letter. Send them to corporate and your local retailers. Sign a petition if it makes you feel better, but nothing will compare to an onslaught of hand and typewritten letters. Write the studios and your local rental houses.
Dual releases are NOT our goal here. Although, that is a better alternative I must add. Dual releaess in both formats propogates misinformation. What do you think will end up in stores and rental outlets. Just look at several of the threads from this past week.
The idea that DVD will become a P&S format is disgusting. The whole theory behind DVD will be lost, and we will be catapulted back 10 years. This can and will happen if we do not respond now! We will get P&S releases followed by widescreen releases months later on "popular" titles. You will no longer be able to rent your favorite flick. Hell, even your beloved Netflix IS (not will) following suit.
It is scary to think we are on the brink of losing what we have all enjoyed these past few years. Home Theater will be lost as we know it. DVD has successfully put LD into the ground. There will be no format to drop back to. We will be stuck in a non OAR environment.
Our battle is education! We are NOT in the majority here folks. Most younger adults and HT hobbyists enjoy OAR. However, there are many more that want to fill up their screens - anything else is a waste.
Show your support, educate the ignorant, and write your letters! Otherwise, suffer the consequences.
Start now!
Hollywood Video:
Hollywood Entertainment Corporation
9275 SW Peyton Lane
Wilsonville, OR 97070
Walmart:
Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.
Bentonville
Arkansas 72716-8611
Blockbuster:
Blockbuster - McKinney Headquarters
Customer Service
3000 Redbud Boulevard
McKinney, Texas 75069
C. Ryan
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http://www.elitestoragedesigns.com/RyanOAR.bmp
[Edited last by CRyan on October 08, 2001 at 06:23 PM]

 

[AaronMK]

quote: I own a WS set there is no alternative for me.[/quote]
I own a 4:3 set, and there is no alternative to OAR for me.
So what if Wal-Mart will not carry OAR DVD's? Its not money out of the sutdios' pocket. People will go elsewhere to make their purchase, preferably to stores that cater to both crowds. It is money out of Wal-Mart's pocket.
I have nothing against J6P, myself being one in many areas. But my mainstream preference for in other products does not prevent the hobbyist from getting there less mainstream preference those respective areas. Why must it be like this with DVD?
My sig says it all.
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My DVD's
If a movie is not available in OAR, than it might as well not be available at all.
[Edited last by AaronMK on October 08, 2001 at 06:24 PM]

 

[Lou Sytsma]

Ron - the idea of a promotional spot is a good one and the real trick is to implement it in a non-obstrusive manner.
If it is perceived as an ad people will skip/fast forward over it. If they are forced to watch it then you can be sure complaints will start.
Another alternative would be to include both presentations for the short term. The way the James Bond movie - Tomorrow Never Dies - did it was good. You had to choose between pan 'n scan and widescreen. The pan 'n scan option showed how much of the picture you would loose.
This is going to take time and will not be changed quickly.
I am fearful that widescreen presentations could be become more difficult to procure in the future.
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Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.
MyHTSetup

 

[David Ely]

All I have to say is this ....
If we can get Zardoz released on DVD, we can win this fight too!

 

[Michael Reuben]

quote: To all who mocked and derided those of us who warned that mainstream acceptance of the DVD format would be a bad thing (and you know who you are).
Told you so.[/quote] It's too early to gloat. It may turn out to be a good thing that the issue of widescreen vs. P&S is being raised and debated on a scale and to a degree never before imagined. As Ron says, it's a dangerous situation, but it could also be an opportunity.

If we can get Zardoz released on DVD, we can win this fight too!

Right on! I'll happily take the risks of mainstream success, and all the amazing OAR titles and special editions it's brought in four and a half years, over two more decades of niche product.
M.
[Edited last by Michael Reuben on October 08, 2001 at 06:27 PM]

 

[Kevin Coleman]

Why don't the studios just start enabling the Pan and Scan on the fly option. It is in the DVD spec. That would make everyone happy. This would be good in two ways.
1. The picture would fill JSP ugly square TV he would be happy until...
2. Since the Pan and Scan on the fly would not really even be Pan and Scan becuase it just chops the sides of the picture off regardless of where the action is. JSP might then actually notice that hey I AM missing part of the picture since it won't be panning and scanning back and forth to keep the action in the middle. Then you will have a widescreen convert.
Kevin C.

 

[Brian O]

This is indeed bad news. But, having once had a J6P mentality myself, it is not surprising.
I think one solution to this could be hardware based. I bought a Toshiba DVD player when I got into DVD 3 years ago. The reason why was because of the Zoom feature. On Toshibas, I could actually zoom in one or two levels and watch the movie on my 35" Tube TV...and it was a very clean picture, unlike other maker's DVD zoom feature. I consider this like having training wheels until I got used to OAR and the black bars.
If all DVD makers had a clean Zoom feature for those customers that demand a screen that is entirely filled in by the movie picture, we could eliminate a software based solution.
I always recommend Toshiba DVD players to people that are new to DVD and/or have a smaller TV, due to the Toshiba Zoom feature. That way they have a choice with all software.
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[TomRS4]

Not only are they being rejected on DVD, all you have to do is turn on your TV and see that widescreen is growing incredibly quickly now. Pretty much all of NBC's dramas are now broadcast widescreen. Enterprise is broadcast widescreen on UPN. Almost all of HBO's original programming is being broadcast widescreen when appropriate.

But these are television shows produced for 16:9 television, not movies made for 2.35:1 movie theaters. I am afraid that in the future 2.35:1 movies will be panned & scammed to 16:9, it's already being done for HBO hi-def. The only hope I see, is that all the 16:9 television shows will educate the masses about the black bars on their 4:3 television sets, so they understand the black bars for widescreen movies. I've had people say they thought widescreen televisions were supposed to get rid of the black bars when I've been showing them a 2.35:1 movie.
NBC is showing some letterboxed dramas, and hopefully soon they'll start actually broadcasting for 16:9 sets. CBS and ABC do broadcast in hi-def, but I've never seen one of their shows that wasn't panned & scammed with their regular broadcast. I think it would help if ABC and CBS stopped with the pan & scam and showed their shows letterboxed on the old-fashioned analogue broadcasts.
Anyway, there are a few disjointed thoughts on the matter.
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Tempus Fugit

 

[Edwin-S]

Some people cannot be educated. As long as 4:3 ratio TV sets dominate the marketplace, the pressure for P&S releases is not going to abate. Manufacturers have to start doing something to promote a move to widescreen sets and the best way to do it is to start bringing down prices. This would probably not totally alleviate the P&S problem but would certainly do a lot to lessen it. No matter what is done there is always going to be someone who will complain that part of their TV screen is being wasted because of "them devil sent black bars".
After watching so many letter boxed movies, I actually find myself missing the bars when I watch movies broadcast on TV. This may sound nutty but the bars actually sometimes seem to enhance the color qualities of the picture. I have watched the opening sequence of "The Sopranos" which is LB'd and I find I get annoyed when they switch to full screen mode for the rest of the show. The more I think about it, the more I think they should only make movies on DVD with the OAR. Once people realized that is the only way they are going to be able to watch the film, the whining would quit because there would be no point in continuing to snivel. Maybe there really can be a point reached where there is too much choice.
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[Michael Sliger]

AMC used to do this type of promotion for widescreen presentations a few years ago. Before the film aired, a 10-15 minute documentary showing the value of letterboxed films on their network. IIRC, they showed clips of Ben Hur, Spartacus, The Graduate and other movies in both pan-and-scan and widescreen and pointed out how cropping can ruin a film. That presentation sold my sister on widescreen DVDs and tapes after my exhaustive efforts failed. Similar work by home video producers, either as a DVD extra or as part of the TV ads for the disks, can be effective if they just try. If media bombardment can make "artists" like Britney Spears popular, why not widescreen DVDs?

 

[Dan Hitchman]

I will reiterate how many people feel on this subject, including myself, in case studio heads are reading this thread:
No OAR = No Sale.
I want OAR even on HD-DVD, which is native 1.78:1 (if that means some black bars on the top and bottom or sides, so be it). If that doesn't happen I won't buy into that format either.
If you studios dumb down DVD even further into a digital version of VHS... I WILL NOT BUY DVD's. PERIOD.
Is that clear enough for you?
We need to educate, not pander. Look at CDs. They came along and almost over night records were scrapped. No one complained (well, maybe the die hard LP buyers did). Don't even give J6P a choice in the matter. He/She'll come around. Stand up to Wal Mart!!
Dan
(mad as Hell and not gonna take it any more).
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[Edited last by Dan Hitchman on October 08, 2001 at 06:38 PM]

 

[Carlo_M]

I was just thinking of something:
Yes we are in the minority. There are way more J6Ps than us. But how many actually COLLECT movies? All of the people I know who buy movies, and own more than say 40, are movie lovers and understand OAR. The vast majority of people I know who would fall in J6P range don't buy many movies at all.
So we must have a little clout, even though we're outnumbered like 100 to 1. We buy 100 times more titles!

 

[Trace Downing]

I remember about 3 years ago, I went on a rant about this. I was called Chicken little.

If I were a studio executive (let's say WB, but any will do) in a meeting with John-Boy Walton (whatever his name is)...
Walton: We just can't continue to buy any more of your DVDs unless their in the full screen format. I'm sorry.
Me: Is there any other way I can change your mind? There is a real market for widescreen format...and by the way, it's pan and scan, not full screen!
Walton: Whatever. No, my mind is made up! Remember, without us, your VHS sell through market would've been a fraction of the size is became. My customers just don't want widescreen DVDs, or widescreen TVs for that matter. And, what my customers want, America wants! What's the matter with you?
Me: So that's it then? Your cutting us off?
Walton: If you refuse to change, you bet!
Me: (dialing my cellphone in his office) "Hello Brent? Yeah...um' Wal Mart has just shut us out of their DVD purchasing plans. I need you to get some trucks and pull all of our DVDs from their shelves...you got that?..........Oh' and Brent, while your at it...um' why don't you pull all of the VHS's as well. Also, any piece of merchandise that we have a license on, Bug's, Tweety, Batman, Superman, yes...even Harry Potter. When do I want it done? YESTERDAY!!! Get me the other studio heads on the line." (hangs up)
Me: (Shakes Walton's hand) Sorry that we couldn't make a deal today, you have my card. You know I'm from Hollywood, so you know what "We'll do lunch" really means, don't you?
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[Edited last by Trace Downing on October 08, 2001 at 07:00 PM]

 

[Marc Deslauriers]

I think two things could be done:
1- Form a "widescreen advocacy group" which would give demonstrations and pamphlets in retail outlets to educate J6P. If Wal Mart had a nice pamphlet to give out to J6P complaining about the "black bars" maybe they would...
2- Studios should not make seperate P&S and widescreen versions of movies. How do you educate J6P of the merits of OAR if his Mummy Returns DVD only has P&S on it? If a P&S version is needed, it should be on the same DVD (or on a second one in the same box). When selecting the P&S version, a example clip of what he will be missing should be shown. (Maybe the studios could get some famous directors and actors to explain why OAR is better...)
If the studios are complaining of the costs needed to master a P&S version of the movie for the DVD, then they should just include the low quality P&S master made for the VHS version. If J6P doesn't know the difference between OAR and P&S, he surely won't notice the low-quality P&S master made for VHS. Maybe it should even be labelled that way "Side 1 - High-Quality Original Aspect Ratio Version" "Side 2 - Low Quality Full-Screen Version". They should also put all the special features on the OAR side.
Marc.

 

[Trace Downing]

Double you pleasure, double your post.
[Edited last by Trace Downing on October 08, 2001 at 07:04 PM]

 

[Jesse Skeen]

Uh, what about the inital idea of having BOTH versions on the SAME disc, which is what they intended in the beginning? Having BOTH formats is the only way to stop the controversy since some people just won't listen to any explanation. When they finally come to their senses, they'll already have the widescreen version on the disc. If Warner, New Line and Sony can put out most of their discs with BOTH formats on them and sell them for under $25 (even less on older titles), what's the problem???
The ability to manufacture more DVD-18's is the answer- Yes, that'll mean you won't get your Full Color Artwork, but I'm sure someone'll make labels to cover the side they don't want. If DVD-18 isn't possible, I'd rather see extras dropped to accomodate both formats than have pan-and-scan only, which is what happened with "Willy Wonka" (which WAS previously available as a 2-sided disc with BOTH formats!!!!)
It's nice to say "You'll take widescreen and like it!" but when I had only VHS the attitude was "You'll take pan and scan and like it!" The only way to please EVERYONE is give them a CHOICE, and DVD makes it possible to do this without separate releases like VHS and LD did (and there WERE some complaints about widescreen on LD, though apparently not many- Universal had even stopped doing pan and scan altogether since they didn't sell many when they had dual releases, and Warner was doing EVERYTHING in widescreen only.)
Of course, it would be interesting to see what'd happen if they just kept DVD mostly widescreen-only and said basically "Go watch VHS" if they want pan and scan.

 

[Luke_A]

It baffles me that people don't know about widescreen. II would like to hope that people have gone to the movie theaters enough times in their life to note that the screen is rectangular. Do they think that movies will just magically fit perfectly onto there 4:3 televisions.
I don't think words could express the anger that would come from me if P&S did end up reigning supreme. Being 16 means not having lots of money, and I have dumped most of my money into DVDs and hardware. Why do I do this? Because I love DVDs. I got into this whole thing, because most of my life I have been a movie lover. When DVD gave me the chance to experience movies with superior picture and sound, how could I pass it up? Of course I didn't get this "superior sound and picture" right away. I had to work for every damn thing that makes my DVD experience what it is. The work was long and hard, but I was determined, and I finally got all the components I felt I had needed to enjoy DVD. Now there is a possibility that widescreen may go bye-bye? All that work for nothing...it just pisses me off.

 

[Dwayne]

Educating the public about widescreen is certainly necessary. But it may be a bit more complex than one initially thinks. The differences between scope and pan and scan are obvious. But what about films that are 1:85 or 1:66? That's where you start getting into the history of aspect ratios and shot composition. These would need to be covered as well. For example:
You show J6P the differences using TPM as your demo material, and he'll clearly see that with pan and scan, there are things being cut out of the picture (not to mention the horrible, manufactured movements within the frame). But later on, he makes a comparison between a widescreen and a full-frame presentation of a feature, and sees that image information is being cut out of the widescreen version.
Point being, if the studios are going to educate the public about widescreen, then they need to cover everything.
With that said, I will not buy anything but OAR.
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-Dwayne