Dire Straits: Brothers in Arms - DVD-A or DualDisc? (1 Viewer)

[ElevSkyMovie]

Well, it couldn't have been mixed digitally if there weren't any digital consoles out yet. Even when I was in school from 90-94, there was no way to get a digital signal out of the Sony 24 track decks. There was no all digital signal path from mic to cd in the early 90's, so I don't think there was in 83 either.

 

[Geremia P.]

For what it's worth, my 1985 vintage copy says "A Full Digital Recording" on the back case. There is no SPARS code in sight.

 

[Paul.S]

D'oh!

Okay Kyle, we're both Rush fans: Power Windows--as you know, released in 1985--has a DDD SPARS code. If not the remaster, I *know* the original CD did . . .

-p

 

[ElevSkyMovie]

I'm not saying the Spars code is wrong. I'm just saying I don't think the album was mixed digitally. I may be wrong about that, but I don't think so. Hopefully someone else around can confirm or correct me. Just because the liner notes say it was a digital recording doesn't mean it was kept as ones and zeros throughout the entire process.

 

[Paul.S]

Kyle, you appear to be wanting to have it both ways. You ARE saying the SPARS is wrong IF you don't think the album was mixed digitally.

Or, to put a finer point on it, you're questioning the accuracy of the second letter being "D" for all recordings supposedly "DDD" before circa 1990.

Might you be superimposing a post-90s understanding of digital recording onto the early 80s engineering landscape? Other than visionaries like Massenburg, did engineers even think of defining digital recording in terms of keeping the entire signal path 1s and 0s from mic to recording media at that point in time?

-p

 

[ElevSkyMovie]

Paul,

I'm not saying the SPARS code is wrong, I'm just saying it doesn't cover the mixing of the album and you can't always say a cd with a code of DDD was kept all digital, only that it was recorded digitally. The code doesn't say anything about how it was mixed.

You are getting at the point I was trying to make. Some may consider BIA to be a digital recording. I would say it's close enough. It was tracked digitally and mixed to a digital source for digital mastering. That's enough for me to consider it a digital recording. All I'm trying to point out is just because a cd has a DDD Spars code doesn't mean it was kept all digital throughout the entire process. That wasn't even possible until the early/mid nineties.

A good example of an all digital recording is the Alison Krauss and Union Station Live album, which was tracked to DSD and mixed on a digital desk. The entire signal path was kept digital.

 

[Paul.S]

To further test everyone else's patience . . .
I understand your point but find the way you're expressing it problematic, Kyle. The SPARS code does/did address mixing just not to the degree of specificity that you're taking it to.

"All I'm trying to point out is just because a cd has a DDD Spars code doesn't mean it was kept all digital throughout the entire process. "
Understood/point taken. But I don't think this ever became the topic of major label boasting/marketing the way SPARS' "DDD" did. This was something people with your level of recording engineering background/education or more read/discussed in Mix. And by the time, say, rock engineers were boasting about it, it was old news to Telarc who'd been doing it for I think years already.

Here's the text of the stock liner notes explanation of the SPARS code (it's remarkable how many CDs I had to grab to find it; this is from my Duran Duran Notorious liner notes . . . an outstanding digital recording . . . but not necessarily one that stayed digital until it hit the tape! ):

"DDD = digital tape recorder used during session/recording, mixing and/or editing, and mastering (transcription)."

"ADD = analogue tape recorder used during session recording, digital tape recorder used during subsequent mixing and/or editing and during mastering (transcription)"

Pretty vague in retrospect, and the point you're making calls that out. Heck, according to these definitions, some tracks could have been recorded/mixed analog and some digital and the disc could still bear the "DDD" moniker. But SPARS was not a licensing body, so I think this code was used loosely. Another probable reason for its eventual demise.

Back to the freakin' topic: it looks like Amazon has at least four BIA discs listed (import SA-CD, domestic SA-CD??, remastered CD and original CD), but no DualDisc . . .?

-p

 

[Brian L]

Dispatch from the "I know I will hate myself in the morning" desk:

I succumbed to temptation and bought the damn thing at Circuit City this morning. I have not even given it a complete listen, but going for the low hanging fruit, I cued up MC DVD-A mix of "Money for Nothing", and cranked it to the "appropriate" volume.

Yee Haaa! What a fun mix. Solid sonics, consistent with the original, and plenty of solid low end energy. The bass and kick drum are solid.

But in the negative column, my shiny, almost new Denon 3910 will not recognize the CD layer. I was sort of expecting that, and its not a show stopper for me, but it does point out the half-ass nature of this format.

Edit: The CD side does play in my Pio 45a, but not in my Pio 509 CD Recorder, so that's a .500 batting percentage of players that I have tried. Great for bassball, crappy for consumer electronics!

Back to the positive column, my shiny new Rotel 1072 CD player DOES find the CD layer just fine, and as a bonus, its HDCD (which the Rotel decodes). Cool, and it sounds killer.

I won't have me vintage CD back for a comparo, but I am not hearing anything on the CD of the dually to complain about, but I still think the format is doomed, and the return rate surely will be high when users find out that it may or may not play in all of their machines.

Brian

 

[Lewis Besze]

I also bought this at BB. All formats plays on my Denon 2900, and my old trusty Pioneer Elite CD player[CD side] which is about 10 years old now.
I don't thinhk the MC mix is true to the original for one reason.: the lead vocal seem to come from all channels and has a nasty reverb/echo to it. Bummer.

 

[Brian L]

I am hearing that too, but only in certain spots. For example, the beginning of "The Man's Too Strong" where its just Mark and his guitar; definitely distracting at that point. But once some additional instruments join in, its not as noticeable.

I was able to listen to all but the last two tracks at lunch, and would say I am pretty happy with the mix. There does not seem to be all that much discrete instrumentation mixed to the rears, but it is very enveloping.

And one thing that will really get your attention is some low bass at certain spots in "The Man's Too Strong". Holy Crap!

Immediately after Mark sings the chorus, there is crashing D to C guitar chord followed by some sort of percussion instrument that hits hard and low. Its repeated a few times during the chorus sections and during the outtro.

I am guessing its below 30 hertz, but if you have a sub and its working right, it will make you jump. Great fun!

Brian

 

[Lewis Besze]

Brian,
my comments were based on the first 2 cuts on the album[my favorites], the mix improves quiet a bit after that, which makes me wonder why the first 2 were "messed" up like that. Yeah, I know which bass you talking about, it was quiet good on the original CD as well.

 

[Leo]

I wish they had stuck with DVD-A. I hate to have to run the risk of getting a Dualdisc stuck in my Acura TL's slot drive.

 

[Brian L]

Leo, if I were you, I would not even THINK about sliding a Dually in a slot loaded player.

Its obvious this thing is thicker than a normal disc. I would just make a dub of the CD side for the car, and live with 2CH playback....it's not worth the risk.

Brian

 

[Larry Geller]

Well, let me be your beta-tester. I have been putting all kinds of DualDiscs in my TL for months now (including BIA). NO problem whatsoever, and everything plays perfectly, both sides!

 

[Paul.S]

Pursuant to the very end of my post #47, am I missing it or is Amazon still just not listing this Dual?

-p

 

[Phil A]

DualDiscs may play in lots of things, but all it takes is one mishap that may make one sorry. I know of 2 people who got them stuck in car players. One got out OK but I'm not sure the disc was 100% OK after that. The other is one of those changer mechanisms that stacks the CDs internally (no magazine). From what I understand the player is damaged beyond repair. No, it was not new - almost 5 yrs. old and who knows if it would have happened anyway, but I personally prefer not to experiment.

 

[Paul.S]

Yeah, Phil--you've made it repeatedly clear in many, many posts that you prefer not to 'experiment' with Duals, thanks.

-p

 

[Dennis_H]

I finally went to the dark side and picked up my first DualDisc. Now I am having trouble getting it to play on my Pioneer 563. It will play the hi res stereo tracks, and the Dolby Digital tracks, but will not output sound on the hi res multichannel group. It shows it playing, and the display is correct for 96K 24bit 3/2 sound, but no sound out of the analog outputs. I made sure the player was working correctly again with Yes' Fragile DVD-A disc at 96K 24bit 3/2 and it is working fine with analog outputs. Went back and tried a few more times and can only get the other groups working. I also can't get the dolby digital group to output from digital output, only analog. Anyone else with this issue?

Dennis_H

 

[Larry Geller]

This has nothing to do with the DualDisc & has everything to do with the 563. Get the fix from Pioneer & all will be well.

 

[Paul.S]

It's not quite that simple IMO, Larry. It sounds as though Warner's (and therefore perhaps UMG's) continued futzing with the encryption schema used on their hi rez tracks (which caused Seal IV, that Neily Young title--I think Greendale, Tommy and several other DVD-As to not play on the 563A w/o a firmware upgrade has transmuted over to affect Dual titles as well.

Given that Dennis' BIA Dual will likely play in other DVD players, I'd argue that's it's both the disc and the player that are issues.

-p