Digital vs Analog External Inputs on my 4800 (1 Viewer)

[Mike Lindsey]

I have a Denon 4800 and a Panasonic RP91 DVD player (192khz/24 bit). Just recently, I started playing some of my 5.1 DD music DVD's (James Taylor Live at the Beacon Theater, YES Live at the House of Blues and Fleetwood Mac's The Dance) and have always played these thru the Digital cable from the DVD Player, and the Denon set to Auto. Just for the heck of it, I decided to switch to the External Inputs and OH MY GOD, WHAT A DIFFERENCE! One of the reasons I have never tried this is I thought the DAC's in the Denon were superior to the Panasonic's. Am I wrong here?
Using the External Inputs, there is so much more separation between the instruments as well as it being so much more dynamic. I am also hearing much more sound coming from the surrounds than I am from the digital cable. Do I have something set wrong for this to happen or is this how I am supposed to be playing them? I just thought the External Inputs were for the DVD-Audio discs only. The one area where the digital cable may have an advantage is the bass. It seems there is a lot more bass while in DD 5.1 versus the analog inputs. Can someone also explain this? The 5.1 DD version seems a little more muddied where the analog version is more balanced. If anybody has any input on this I would greatly appreciate it.
BTW, Here is my equipment list:
Hitachi 43UWX10B HDTV (16:9)
Denon AVR-4800
Acurus A200X3
Panasonic DVD-RP91K
Dual CS-5000 Turntable w/Shure V15V-MR
DBX 3bx Series III Range Expander
Mains - Klipsch Chorus II (Oiled Oak/Acurus Amp)
Center - Klipsch KLF-C7 (Finished Black/Acurus Amp)
Surrounds - Klipsch Chorus I's (Finished Black/Denon)
Surround Back - Klipsch RS-3's (White/Denon)
SVS 20-39CS Sub w/Samson S700 Amp
Monster HTS-3500 Line Conditioner
Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2100 Digital Cable box
Monster M-500 Component Video cables
Monster Datalink 100 Digital Coaxial cables
Radio Shack Gold Series & AR for all other audio interconnects
Thanks,
Mike

 

[Lewis Besze]

The external inputs lets you balance the speakers just like,the digital inputs,make sure you do that before you draw any conclusions.

 

[Mike Lindsey]

Lewis,

I balanced the channels on the RP91 as well as the 4800. Does anybody else have this combination and if so, can you tell me how you have them setup? I would be real curious how you are listening to 5.1 DD music...

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Gil D]

Mike,

I guess I'm surprised to hear this. I have Denon 3801 and Sony C555es SACD changer. While the 555 analog is slightly better I didn't think it was an "Oh my God" difference with CD's in stereo.

So I guess the questions is, Is the Denon 4800 that bad or the Panasonic that good? How do you have the bass redirected via the Panny vs the Denon? Sounds like you might be running the Panny large all around.

 

[Mike Lindsey]

Gil,

Thanks for the response. Although I have plyed a few CD's using the analog external inputs, they did not sound any different than using the digital audio cable from the DVD player (I do not own a CD player). However, DD 5.1 music DVD's sounded much different, and much better, except for the LFE. I only have one DVD-A disc (Fleetwood Mac Rumors) and it sounds outstanding using the anolog inputs as well (as it should).

I have some very large speakers (Chorus's all the way around), but have them set to small in the Denon and the RP91. There is no crossover settings in either machine, so I am assuming a fixed crossover of 80hz to my 20-39CS via the subwoofer out on my Denon. Not sure how it directs the bass using the external inputs. All I know is the SVS isn't working as hard as it is with the digital cable. All I know is everything seems to be crisper (more lifelike), the rear surrounds are being utilized more and there is better instrument separation (and vocal separation) using the analog inputs.

I even checked it against a DTS music video (Eagles HFO) and the vocals on Seven Bridges Road just blew away the DTS version. Not sure what's going on here but I'm sure I must have something setup wrong on either, or both machines for this to be this way.

If anybody has any other comments I sure would like to hear them...

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Philip Hamm]

Maybe you have some kind of dynamic range "nighttime viewing" function or something switched "on" by accident in the Denon? They should sound very similar. When I A/B my Technics DVD-A10 (similar to the 91 but with better audio and worse video) with my external decoders (Onkyo ED901 and Millenium 2.4.6) I can barely if at all tell the difference.

Check the bass management also.

 

[Mike Lindsey]

Philip,

When you say "check the bass management", what do you actually mean?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Philip Hamm]

Make sure that the RP91 and the Denon are doing the same thing (same crossover freq if possible) and that your sub volume is the same for test tones in both.

 

[Mike Lindsey]

Philip,
Thanks again for the reply. There is no adjustible crossover for the Denon (80hz) and I'm not sure about the RP91 (can't find anything in the manual) using the analog outputs. I have calibrated the Denon using VE and RS SPL meter, to 75db for all speakers (including sub). The RP91 only lets you calibrate the center and surrounds off of the mains. You do this with their internal test tones which I have done at a 75db volume. Unfortunately, you cannot calibrate the sub with a test tone but there is an adjustment for it, and I have it set to it's highest setting (+6db).
Any other thoughts?
Mike
Edit: I just moved from Springfield back in March. Lived there for over 20 years and worked for Dewberry and Davis, in Fairfax for the last 19. How's the weather there? It's hotter than Haiti down here.

 

[Gil D]

Unfortunately, you cannot calibrate the sub with a test tone but there is an adjustment for it, and I have it set to it's highest setting (+6db).

That should not be. Even my old Technics SHAC500D dd/dts decoder put out a test tone for the sub. It sounds like something is very wrong.

On the Panny crossover, most likely it is fixed at 120Hz given the history of their dd/dts decoder.

For comparison, you may want to try running stereo-only full range out of the Panny to analog stereo inputs on the Denon and use the Denon's Analog Direct mode. You can turn the sub on in this mode which uses digital xover @ 80Hz for the sub and an analog hi pass for the mains.

 

[Philip Hamm]

That should not be. Even my old Technics SHAC500D dd/dts decoder put out a test tone for the sub. It sounds like something is very wrong.

Actually come to think of it I think my Technics DVD-A10 works the same way. I'm not sure how they expect you to set the level with no test tone for the sub!

 

[Mike Lindsey]

Guys,
Without realizing it, I never set the EXT-IN mode on my Denon and therefore, the volume was much louder using that mode versus the DD 5.1 and DTS modes. This is because my Klipsch speakers are so efficient (The Chorus mains and rears are 101db @ 1/w/m). My settings using the VE disk and calibrating to 75db are the following:
FL__Chorus II.. -12
C___KLF-C7..... -9
FR__Chorus II.. -12
SR__Chorus I... -10
SBR_RS-3....... -1
SBL_RS-3....... -1
SL__Chorus I... -9
SW_SVS_20-39 -7
With the EXT-IN mode however, I decided to set everything back to 0 on the RP91 and make all the adjustments on the Denon. To reach the same 75db SPL, the bass had to be pumped up to +5. That's a 12db difference versus the digital cable! The volumes are now right in line with one another and the bass is putting out about the same output regardless of input mode. Believe it or not, I still like the analog inputs more than the digital but there is not quite the difference there was before.
Thanks again for all your help on this matter...
Mike