Did THX ever have that "discussion" about the EE on Phantom Menace DVD??? (2 Viewers)

[John Alderson]

Maybe it's not edge enhancement (or not entirely)? A couple of those screenshots almost looked like it was some sort of weird optical reflection or other defect. For example, the shot of Qui-Gon's shoulder.

*shrug*

 

[Jeff Kleist]

And you say you didn't see it. Therefore....what? You're claiming it doesn't exist? It's not a problem? The people who do see it on displays that are explicity designed to include DVDs as a display source are imagining it? They need to shut the hell up?

No, I'm saying that you shouldn't be expecting a format not designed for gigantic screens to look perfect on gigantic screens (32"+). That's my point. And as I have said before, I see it on some titles, I don't see it on most of the infamous offenders (TPM, Kiki, Die Hard 3 etc), I DO see it on other titles. Wings of Honneamise for example, in addition to one of the worst authoring/telecine/compression jobs of all time has enough halos in it to stock a battalion of angels. Almost any time Capt. Picard is in the Enterprise ready room, I can spot a halo on someone's shoulder or noggin.

 

[RobertR]

some sort of weird optical reflection

No it's not. This kind of attempt to explain away the problem doesn't fit the facts.

 

[RobertR]

I'm saying that you shouldn't be expecting a format not designed for gigantic screens to look perfect on gigantic screens (32"+).

I'm not demanding perfection, and neither is anyone else. All we are asking is that the format be used to its maximum potential without unnecessary and harmful artifacts. There are titles that show that not only is this goal achievable, it HAS been achieved. This is NOT the same thing as "perfection".

 

[Michael St. Clair]

I'm saying that you shouldn't be expecting a format not designed for gigantic screens to look perfect on gigantic screens (32"+).

You don't need a gigantic screen to see it. If my non-calibrated $500 consumer 27" TV shows it, it would show up on any quality studio monitor that can resolve regular NTSC resolution.

Not to mention the fact that somebody who works for the studio could at least take a checkdisc home and check it out on a larger screen before releasing it to production.

I guess since it is completely unrealistic to expect a studio to release a quality 480p transfer, we should expect all of their HD releases via D-Theater, WM9, and HD cable/satellite/OTA to look like complete garbage. :rolleyes

 

[Brian Dobbs]

i just watched Episode 1 with a LCD projector on a Da-lite 8 x 5 screen and frequently I noticed the edge enhancement and boy after a while I couldn't help but let it sidetrack my viewing experience.

 

[Carl Bradshaw]

Wait until you guys see 'Gangs of New York'. We may have a new reference point for terrible EE - all the detail in mid-long shots is completely destroyed. I imagine they tried to tweak the EE due to the long runtime of the movie on a single disc, just another example of how to really mess up the DVD release of a new movie.

 

[Damin J Toell]

I imagine they tried to tweak the EE due to the long runtime of the movie on a single disc, just another example of how to really mess up the DVD release of a new movie.

I'm not sure what disc you've seen, but those with early copies of the R1 release have reported that the film is split over 2 discs and looks very nice.

DJ

 

[Carl Bradshaw]

I stand corrected, the movie is indeed spread across two discs, so I cannot understand why the EE is so bad.

I have only watched the first 30mins and I found the EE too distracting, so I switched the movie off. Will give it another go on my smaller TV in the lounge. I was watching the R1 USA disc on a Panasonic 42" plasma.

 

[Aaron Cohen]

I have heard mixed things as well. Over at the DVD Talk forums someone reported that it was going to be a 2-disc set and everyone agreed that it was to make sure the picture looked great. I believe someone over there (possibly here) reported that the disc looked great.... But in several other places on the internet (including here now) I have heard about horrendous EE on this title...

This is getting out of hand.

 

[greg_t]

I'm glad I don't see EE. It must suck to not be able to enjoy a movie because you can't stop looking at the video flaws. Anyway, remember this quote from Van Ling during the chat.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

What Van is talking about here is telecine edge enhancement, not what so many people in the DVD realm refer to as EE (edge haloing), just FYI

 

[Dave H]

I recently had my 61" TV ISF'd again (more of a tune up). I watched Phantom Menace last night. Once again, *something* is definitely there in terms of ringing or haloing (if it's not EE). It is noticable - more so than on other DVDs. I didn't think it ruined the picture, but it shouldn't be there whatever it is. The shots where they are walking around on Tatoonine is where it is very noticable, but it was in other scenes, as well.

Also, is it just me, or does Phantom Menace not look as filmlike as other movies. It has a more video-like appearance to it. Some scenes have almost a very light video smear appearance. It almost looks like some kind of filtering took place creating this effect. This is the first time I have watched it in a while, and the transfer is not as good as I originally thought. I mean it looks pretty good, but FAR from reference quality (even if it didn't have EE).

 

[Anthony Urzi]

So the accepted refrence distance is 1-1.5 screenwdiths away? Because a Bestbuy employee *hardly a reliable source for anything* stated it was a factor of 4.....4 feet for every foot fo screensize, so if i sit 16 feet from tv, the largest size tv the room can accomidate is 48", i was looking to purches a 60" ended up scaling down to a 55, s ave a little money and he scared em out of the 60, statign the picture would be horable, and i'd get motion sick, all of whiich i kind of suspected to be crap and brushed msot fo what eh said aside.....

On a sid enote, i dont see the EE oon TPM< then again i dont relaly know what i'm looking for and i'm half blind anyway, lets put ti thsi way, whatever artifacts are there...don't bother anyoen in my family nor detract from our entertainment of the film.....I guess i'm just used to really bad avi and mppg video, so even bad dvd looks picture perfect to me.

 

[Charles J P]

Jeff, are you really saying that the DVD format was not really designed to look good on displays above 32"? First of all, where do you get your information? I'm not aware of anything in the DVD spec that lists maximum screen size. Secondly, I dont buy it any way. DVD was plugged as the Home Theater format. A 32" TV is not a home theater. I dont care if you have a 12.4 DD-ES-EX-SS setup with tactile transducers and magical surround transmogrofires. A 32" TV is a TV. Its what you watch CNN on. A home theater includes a large screen that fills your field of vision without having to sit 2 feet from the source and THIS is what DVD was designed for. If all discs looked this bad we wouldnt be complaining, but its painfully obvious that picture quality varries a TON. TPM is one of the worst DVDs out there, and probably in the top 5 worst that I own. There is something wrong with this DVD, its not because I have "too big" of a display.

 

[David James]

" If *you* can't see it on your set Jeff then I'd say that it's *your* problem."

Not much to add really, it's just that I thought this line was very funny. I'd say if Jeff doesn't see a problem then Jeff really doesn't have a problem Oh, I never look for that stuff, I watch movies and concerts on my 100" screen, not technology flaws. I'm not trying to minimize your concerns. I hope whatever it is that you guys see, gets resolved.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Well said David

NTSC was never designed to be shown on such huge screens, it was designed when a 19" was a giant screen TV. ATSC, which DVHS and future HD-DVD are/will be based on ARE designed from the ground up with modern technology in mind, and therefore big screens and 100" TVs ARE on the line of consideration.

 

[Carl Bradshaw]

I forgot to mention that my Panasonic plasma has also been ISF calibrated. I took a screenshot of some EE evidence from Gangs of New York, so if anyone is sitting on the fence let me know your mail address and I'll send you the 2Mb file. It's an untouched close up at ISO400 straight from the plasma.

 

[Patrick McCart]

I watched Episode 1 again on Friday night and here's my new opinions.

I still see the same ringing in the scenes I saw it in before. It's not horrible in any scenes, but simply noticable in those I did notice. The big problem seems to be DVNR. The image has a really odd look to it...grain is there, but it looks very pasty in terms of detail.

At every splice, there is also a lot of speckles. I usually don't notice it, but the dirt shouldn't have been there.

It's nice Lucas went for a film print, but why he didn't go for a transfer from the digital files is beyond me. The transfer looks a lot like it was meant to look like a DDD one anyways.

 

[dpippel]

I made this comment because Jeff is a DVD reviewer. If his equipment is limiting his ability to properly see, identify, and report on problems with the video quality of a DVD transfer then it *is* a problem for his readers.

That post was also addressing the stance by some in this thread that the EE people are seeing on larger displays, a video problem that has been irrefutably documented with hard evidence, doesn't exist or is something we just have to live with. Some seem to think DVD EE is the price we pay for having the audacity to view high resolution, progressive scan, line doubled NTSC video on a large 16:9 HDTV or FP screen. That somehow this problem with ringing and haloing is just inherent to the technology, despite the fact that there is plenty of hard evidence to the contrary.

In my opinion the whole argument is misguided. Instead of trying to make excuses, justify, and explain away the EE problem, we should be striving to get studios to produce the best quality that current DVD technology is capable of. View both Jaws and The Phantom Menace on the same ISF calibrated 16:9 HDTV RPTV, then ask yourself this question: Why does a film released in 1975 by a relatively unknown director look FAR superior on DVD than the flagship release (at the time) from George Lucas and Lucasfilm? Just a single example. This is where the energy should be expended, not pointless debates about 19" TVs and NTSC.