DIALNORM: All studios now? (1 Viewer)

[Yumbo]

dunno,

seems to me most new discs nowadays are so damn low!!!

Warner

Fox

the usual Columbia...

anyone else?

makes one think there is a conspiracy with hardware manufacturers to upgrade to bigger amps, not that it would make a difference.

 

[Michael Reuben]

Specific titles, please.

I have yet to encounter a Fox or Warner disc with a dialnorm setting greater than the encoder default of -4db. (Columbia is the same old story.)

If you're hearing lower volume levels, I suspect it's due to something other than dialnorm.

M.

 

[Yumbo]

ok,

Don't Say A Word

Hearts In Atlantis

Hardball (Paramount)

are just a few...too many to mention as of late. Mainly Warner sticks in my mind.

This is plain observation of volume levels - my normal reference is -40db; I've had to push to average -35db, and to get proper impact -30db.

Why can't they be like New Line?

 

[Mark Bendiksen]

I just got finished watching Hearts of Atlantis. I can't give you exact number off the top of my head, but I agree that it did indeed seem to be quite low.

 

[Michael Reuben]

This is plain observation of volume levels - my normal reference is -40db; I've had to push to average -35db, and to get proper impact -30db.

That doesn't tell you what the dialnorm settings are.

M.

 

[Yumbo]

I'm not obsessed with dialnorm to go measuring it.

it is pretty obvious when you can't hear standard dialog that the levels are lower, be it dialnorm, or mastering levels.

plain situation is that levels are INCONSISTENT.

it's pretty ANNOYING.

Paramount is definately anothe rculprit.

MI:2

An American Rhapsody...anything they've released recently.

Disney's Princess Diaries is a travesty with levels.

 

[Michael Reuben]

I'm not obsessed with dialnorm to go measuring it.

Just enough to start a thread about it.

M.

 

[Yumbo]

grin,

not obsessed, just peeved that we can't enjoy DVDs at an average setting.

stop pissing.

anyone know why there is a trend now to lower the levels?

 

[Artur Meinild]

Maybe the sound mix on these particular movies are a tad lower than average - who knows? I don't think ALL movies are mixed at reference level, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Chris Maynard]

not obsessed, just peeved that we can't enjoy DVDs at an average setting.

Average to who? I have no problem.

 

[Robert George]

I don't think ALL movies are mixed at reference level...

Well, all the good mixing stages are calibrated to reference level. The subjective level any given soundtrack, or portion of a soundtrack, is recoded at is whatever the sound designers decided on when the soundtrack was created.

Frankly, I don't understand what some people's problem is with dialnorm. And I'm not singling out Chris Caine because this same sentiment has been expressed innumerable times here and on other forums I visit. The purpose of dialnorm is simply to give the re-recording engineer a tool to help maintain an average overall volume level across a wide range of material.

Every Dolby Digital track has a dialnorm value and if one uses their equipment properly, that value is there to aid in setting the system volume to approximate what was heard on the mixing stage. If a DVD track was recorded with a relatively low dialnorm value, the DD decoder will indicate the offset so the user can correct that amount with the system volume to still achieve reference level. This is one of the reasons I prefer a THX contoller. The way the dialnorm value is set up with regard to system calibration and overall level is the easiest to use and understand that I have found.

Even if one does not want to go to the trouble of determining the dialnorm of a given disc, if it sounds too low, just turn the thing up. What makes one believe one should not have to adjust the volume on different discs?

 

[DanR]

Even if one does not want to go to the trouble of determining the dialnorm of a given disc, if it sounds too low, just turn the thing up.

Amen.

Regards,

Dan

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

If a DVD track was recorded with a relatively low dialnorm value, the DD decoder will indicate the offset so the user can correct that amount with the system volume to still achieve reference level. This is one of the reasons I prefer a THX contoller. The way the dialnorm value is set up with regard to system calibration and overall level is the easiest to use and understand that I have found.

Obi, while what you said is true, it isn't how dialog norm is supposed to be used. You're right that a user can over come the setting, but I think that someone unfamiliar with the concept might read you post to mean Dialog Norm is an indicator for the user to know how high to set their volume... and that's not correct.
What dialog norm does is actually adjust the overall volume slightly up or down to make the dialog from disc to disc at the same volume. When encoding a Dolby track, you tell it what the average dialog level of your track is. It checks that against what it has decided is "standard" (-26 I think, but don't quote me)-- and it then flags the offset difference between where your track is and where it wants it to be (So if you are at -22, and it want -26 avg, it flags your track with a -4db offset to make it -26).
When using a dolby decoder, it sees that offset number and increase or reduces the overall level to that degree-- making it so every disc has the same avg dialog level, even if the mixing engineer ran a bit low or high on the average levels.
It shouldn't be a number the user then has to compensate for- quite the opposite. If done correctly, the Dialog Norm feature would make it so that a calibrated ref level actually meant something. Not only would your system be calibrated, but the discs wouldbe flagged to have the same median levels.
Unfortunately, no one uses it properly- and most leave it to the default setting (which creates a -4db reduction). I would imagine that some members of this forum know more about this feature than the guys doing the audio encoding.
But again- chances are if you have a low volume soundtrack- that is simply the way it was mixed. Dialog norm is usually left out, or left at default (which causes a -4 offset). If someone would have actually used dialog norm correctly, it would have automatically fixed the lower level soundtrack for you.
So the feature that you're cursing is not only probably not the cause of your problem, it would actually be the solution to your problem.
Just goes to show you...

-V

 

[Artur Meinild]

Unfortunately, no one uses it properly- and most leave it to the default setting (which creates a -4db reduction). I would imagine that some members of this forum know more about this feature than the guys doing the audio encoding.

Thanx Vince and Obi, I figured that was the way it is supposed to work. But as you say Vince most discs are recorded with the 'default' dialnorm value, so eventual small variations in mixing level is *still* preserved on the DVD. This could be avoided if the producers calibrated and chose the best dialnorm value for each title.

 

[Yumbo]

Imagine,

Sitting in a super duper DTS THX 10.1 cinema waiting for Episode II (or any movie you've been looking forward to etc etc etc.), it starts after so many ads blaring through.

The volume is so damn low...you get up, look for an usher, ask them to tell the projectionist to up it a few notches.

That's it.

The experience is lost, at that time.

Expectations are not met, the fanfare is lost.

blah blah blah.

annoying, isn't it?

just a simplified analogy.

 

[Robert Franklin]

All I have to say on this matter is that when I first bought dvds into my home and played them I noticed that the sound was very close to the sound quality of cds. (Uncompressed 44.1) But, not too long after dvds became more and more popular, the sound quality did suffer. I noticed that studios, or whoever the studios would use to replicate their discs, the sound was becoming lower and lower. For example try the Batman series. Listen to the sound at the beginning of the film. Then listen to the opening of all of the rest of the films. This was the first time that I actually noticed a difference in sound levels. NOT SO MUCH AS DIALNORM!! Also, if there are any contemporary jazz fans out there; listen to "An evening with Fourplay". The sound is so low, you have to literally turn your amp or receiver up almost to the point of blasting your speakers just to clearly discern all of the elements of the sound. Note: this is an Image title.

So, if you ask me, that is one major reason that I perfer dts over dd. It seems like to me the sound is more consistent on various dvds. I know some people may say that there is a difference with the full-bit rate and the half bit-rate. Save that for another discussion. All-in-all, dts still is more consistant from soundtrack to soundtrack.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

Chris: But the home theater situation is completely different. Instead of having to leave the theater to find someone who will actually listen to you (or just wait for the usher to see what he can do if you go to a theater that still has real ushers). Then you miss stuff. With DVD, the volume change can be taken care of (in most cases) from your seat. If you do have to get up, simply stop the disc, go back to the main menu, click play, and the movie starts all over again.

 

[Yumbo]

I know.

all I'm saying is there should be standards.

I bet you'd be bitching if colour levels, brightness levels across different discs varied as wildly as sound levels.

it's like crying ANAMORPHIC for all discs and all content.

STANDARDS babeee.

it ain't hard.

and yes, I like to leave my volume setting at one LEVEL, to stop fiddling, and to just enjoy the movie.

 

[Vince Maskeeper]

the sound was becoming lower and lower.

I'm completely lost on the point of your post (are you saying DVD is too low, and then dialog norm makes it worse, or are you saying that dialog norm makes the levels change in one movie, or are you saying Dialog Norm makes it sound worse, or...)

Lower sound doesn't necessarily mean worse. In fact, when compared to the modern approach to 44.1 uncompressed CD, I'd rather hear full dynamic Dolby Digital at 15:1 compression!

Median sound levels for dolby digital is, essentialy, a standard- and that standard is about 26db below full scale-- allowing 26db of headroom. This is a good thing. This doesn't reduce the quality. This doesn't do anything but allow real true dynamics in our chosen playback medium-- and I, for one, love it!

-Vincent

 

[Robert George]

Vince:

Let me try to explain a little better what I meant when I said I like the way THX controllers implement dialnorn.

The default setting for dialnorm on a DD encoder is -27dBfs. The highest setting is -31dBfs. Since the default setting is 4dB below the maximum, most THX contollers/receiver (all the ones I have used myself) assume a dialnorm setting of -27 for calibration purposes. Once the controller has been calibrated properly, setting it at reference level will playback any soundtrack with a dialnorm setting of -27 at reference level.

If, on the other hand, a dialnorm setting of -31 was used, the audio would actually be 4dB louder than reference. This is why a track with a dialnorm setting of -31 will indicate an offset value of "+4dB". This is telling the user this soundtrack is 4dB above what the system has been programmmed as reference level. Same thing for one of those Columbia discs that has a dialnorm setting of -22 or something weird like that. A -22 dialnorm value will give an offset of "-5dB". Turn the master volume up 5dB and you will hear what the audio mastering engineeer at Sony (or where ever) heard before he applied the dialnorm.