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Describe your 2 channel soundstage (1 Viewer)

Charles Gurganus

Supporting Actor
Joined
Mar 2, 1999
Messages
689
"What could I improve that would give be the best benefit with the least cost."

Have you experimented with biamping? I'd try 2 channels from the PA5800 to each BP30. If that improves things (and it will) you could just add on a 2 channel amp for the rears or just add a more powerfull 2 channel amp for the mains.
 

Keir H

Second Unit
Joined
Jan 4, 2001
Messages
462
THanks for the good idea Charles. I am thinking that an amp that has more power than 85w/ch would give me better results since I know the EAD is not my weakest link in using that as a DAC. The amp I have is decent but it's the reason why I don't have that vertical or farther out horizontal sound that people here describe. I want that. I'll try that experiment. Now, for a 2 ch amp.....??
 

Chris Tsutsui

Screenwriter
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
1,865
Suprise, suprise... people love their systems so much. :)
My 2.1 music equiptment:
Rotel 870bx 100wpc x 2 power amp
JBL S38 bookshelfs on custum 24" high mdf stands
Tempest 15" driver in adire alignment pyramid enclosure
powered by 250 watts parts express plate amp
Pioneer 106S dvd player
Hercules 6.1 GTXP pre/pro (in 2.1 mode for music)
acoustic research sub cable
radio shack gold series interconnect
HD 12 gauge home depot speaker wire
I listen without touching the equalizer, enhancing stereo imaging or echo elmination. I have my sub cross to 80hz, phase at 90, and I calibrated my setup with an spl meter and sine wave tones.
Speakers are 1.5 feet from wall separated by 4 feet. Listening position is tweeter level about 5-6 feet from front speakers which have a slight toe in. Sub is 4 inches from side walls of front right corner. Room dimension are 10'x11'. Closet is open behind the listener packed with cotton clothing on hangers to act as a sound absorbant wall.
When I listen to vocals the lead singer always stands right between the speakers while some songs they stand 2-3 feet behind the front speakers. The deepest I've ever heard sound was about 8 feet behind the wall when I heard faint cymbals listening to fantasia. The soundstage sounds like 3 points, either a sound will come from the center or the left or right speakers. I have to strain a bit to hear noise come from another area. I've never heard sounds come from anywhere other than from the speakers or between them so sound stage to the left of the left speaker is non existent. Female vocals sometimes sound 1-2 feet high but when I focus and it ends up being between the speakers.
Bass is well integrated though when the mains are turned off I can hear vocals (female vocals as well). The sub sounds like it plays midrange and it takes the mains to help drown out the sub's mids. Bass is clean but sometimes certain notes sound out of phase. Music is a lot more fuller with the sub so I always use it when I can. Deep bass hits shake the floor of my 2nd story room considerably and cause an enormous amount of vibrations during high spl crossover tests. Each item in my room seems to rattle at different frequencies so it's sounds cool during a bass crossover test.
My speakers are always hissing which can be audible only if the hiss overpowers the loud fans in my computer. To add to that, the tweeter of my speakers give off a high pitch tone that I can't fix in addition to the hiss. The tone is noticeable from listening position when the volume is below reference level and the hiss is noticeable anywhere in the room. When the volume is maxed the hiss becomes VERY loud and the hiss it produces sounds very similar to my fans.
I would like to soon get a rotel 1066 and move away from my computer. It has caused me lots of pain though I do find myself enjoying music when I'm not too embarrassed to listen to it.
As for the pros: Highs are crisp and transparent enough to my liking. Smooth sound response and great volume headroom. Blows away multmedia speakers and the sound is prefered over my Sennheiser EH2200 headphones. The exceptionally loud hiss and distortion tones are unnoticeable when listening to music at adequate volumes and my ears become accustomed to the sub after a little listening.
 

Justin Doring

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 9, 1999
Messages
1,467
Keir, I would argue that your weakest link is not the Harman/Kardon amp but your Definitive Technology speakers. The H/K PA5800 isn't the greatest or most powerful amp out there, but it is reasonably powerful and sounds quite good. Unless you had speakers that had superb resolution and/or presented a very difficult load, I think the H/K would be more than adequate.

On the other hand, speakers make the greatest difference in audio, and Definitive Technology speakers, while decent for home theater applications, aren't known for their performance with music. There are a number of reasonably priced speakers out there (B&W, NHT, Dynaudio, PSB, Vienna Acoustics, Martin Logan, etc.) that perform far better than your current speakers. I think upgrading your speakers would make a far larger improvement than adding or changing amplifiers.
 

Will Gatlin Jr

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
201
My room is 11 1/3 feet acroos the front. My spks are toed in with the back of the spks being about about 8 1/2 inches from the wall, and the front of the spk being 15 inches from the wall. The spks have 7 feet of space between them. I have two Standesign racks flanking my 53-inch TV. I get a huge, powerful, clean soundfield with 225 watts for the highs/mids, and 250 watts for the lows. I too, have experienced music coming from the sides and behind me.

Lexicon
Elite PD-F109 (Transport)
Nak PA-7A II (highs-mids)
Onkyo M508 "Grand Integra" (bass)

NHT VT-2's (front/rear)
 

Keir H

Second Unit
Joined
Jan 4, 2001
Messages
462
Thanks Justin, I'm wondering where are all my Def Tech defenders out there to help save me? haha :) No, but really, I have always thought, man this can be better. I see now my weakest link, one I knew all the time but was hating the thought of selling them (They are so huge!). I'd like some good monitor speakers to replace them with perhaps. Any suggestions around $1000 per pair that great for music as well as movies?
 

Michael R Price

Screenwriter
Joined
Jul 22, 2001
Messages
1,591
Chris, the crossovers in the PE plate amps are really bad, you may want to build your own. A friend with a Tempest said his sub played quite loudly up to 400Hz. That may be messing you up.

I have Adire Kit281s in an 12x15 room along the long wall, they are 2 feet from the front wall and I sit 18 inches from the back wall. This compromises the soundstage in exchange for much better bass response. Still, the soundstage is very good with a quite precise placement and decent depth (I've heard stuff a few feet behind the wall). There's some illusion of 'height' which I find interesting, like the bass instruments coming from nearer the floor, or sometimes the guitar coming from just below a voice. I only hear sound beyond the plane between the speakers in a few recordings (like a sound far to the side, or behind you).

Moving the speakers away from room surfaces makes the sound even more clear, and I hate using silly terms like this but a better sense of "air" - sounds more clear and realistic. However, the bass suffers. I can live with the setup I have now until I get a subwoofer.

I wonder why I don't hear things outside the plane of the speakers much. It's weird. Other people with my speakers say they have a real good wrap-around soundstage. In all honesty though, I think it's just that the music I listen to isn't recorded too well.
 

Jeremy Hegna

Supporting Actor
Joined
Nov 28, 2000
Messages
812
My soundstage is pretty phenomenal, and I still have a few cards to play:)
Front end....
Technics SL-1300, Shure V15 cartridge
Denon 2800 DVD player
Sony 9000ES SACD/CD
Amplifiers...
Rotel 1090
Denon 5800
Speakers...(2 channel)
B&W Nautilus 802s.
I've recently upgraded to my dream speakers, I'm with ya Sam...the N802s. These have without a doubt been the biggest and most noticable improvement/upgrade to the system. I'm using my Rotel 1090, biamped to power them for the time being...but this fall, when fishing season is over, I will be upgrading this amplifier to a Krell or Mac.
Since I've put the TT in the system, I've noticed alot of changes. The soundstage has opened up considerably, with the ability to place voices and instruments in space. The sound is HUGE, ROBUST, like you can take hold of the music and give it a giant hug:) OK, enough of the touchy feely crap...but I'm hooked on analog! CD performance is pretty good as well with the newly added 9000ES. I'm pretty happy with the redbook abilities of this unit, but it's pretty close in comparison with my 2800. However, I bought the 9000 for the 2ch. SACD abilities and so far, I haven't bought any SACD titles...next week, maybe.
I sit approximately 7 1/2 feet from the speakers, toed in slightly, and they are 4 feet from the back wall, two feet from the sides. I have treated my room, and tweaked the placement of the speakers. There is a pretty sizable soundstage with my eyes shut...the room gets much, much bigger. Pretty cool stuff.
Jeremy
 

BeatCrazy

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Mar 7, 2002
Messages
129
Real Name
Sam
Jeremy,
B&W Nautilus 802s.
I've recently upgraded to my dream speakers, I'm with ya Sam...the N802s. These have without a doubt been the biggest and most noticable improvement/upgrade to the system. I'm using my Rotel 1090, biamped to power them for the time being...but this fall, when fishing season is over, I will be upgrading this amplifier to a Krell or Mac.
Your system sounds like a killer! The RMB1090 is a real heavy weight amp. The N802's probably don't need more power, but a new amp never hurt nobody. I like Krell amps, especially for their bass, but to me the McIntosh amps take the "edge" off some recordings and sound tremendous with 802s. I've heard the Mac MC202 and MC352 with 802's and both sound awesome.
 

Mike Bledsoe

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
May 24, 2002
Messages
67
Dear Ricky
My two channel rig consist of a Denon POA 5200 power amp thru the pre-outs of a Denon 3300 reciever together they power two Paradigm Reference studio 60's on either side of of a 35" zenith tv and a Velodyne hgs 12 sub.
My room is about 15"by18"by10" feet there are openings on either side my listening seat sits close to the back wall
on the 18" foot side.
My sound stage tho it could be better, if I had more room to pull my seat father from the wall is open neutral with powerful deep tight bass open exstended highs, depending on recordings sound stages can be a mile deep and on some recordings I can here sounds from behind me many times I can here sounds that come from way outside the speakers and my speakers always disappear.
Imaging is always tight and accurate

Mike
 

Joe Wong

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Jun 8, 1999
Messages
2,664
Frank S,

What's your opinion of the Echobuster products? I'm looking to buy some for when I move into my new house. How much of an improvement (% wise) do you think they make over your non-acoustically treated room?

Thanks,

Joe
 

Larry B

Screenwriter
Joined
Nov 8, 2001
Messages
1,067
Joe:

It can be very signficant, if (1) the room is acoustically poor and (2) the echo-bsters are postioned properly.

Larry
 

Jeremy Hegna

Supporting Actor
Joined
Nov 28, 2000
Messages
812
"I like Krell amps, especially for their bass, but to me the McIntosh amps take the "edge" off some recordings and sound tremendous with 802s."
They are two different animals for sure. I've tried an MC202(?) for a weekend and it was nice. I didn't get to spend near the time necessary though, and I look forward to being able to. I saw a pair of Mac Monoblocks today on e-bay for around $10k. They are beautiful amplifiers, 150lbs. and 1200 watts+:) Completely unneccessary, but what fun that would be! ...and there's something about that McIntosh "Blue" if ya know what I mean.
There are some pretty good deals on them second hand online, so I look forward to some "serious auditioning."
Jeremy
 

Salvador

Second Unit
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Messages
431
WARNING: Amateur interpretation!!!

Receiver: Denon 3802
Speakers: Paradigm Studio 20's
*connected to my computer via optical out of my audigy platinum soundcard

Two Channel Soundstage in my 15 x 12 x 10 room

Speaker Position: Across the width of the room 12 ft apart

Listening Position: Center, 11 ft away

* Left speaker is in the corner and for some reason is weaker than the right speaker (room response). So i calibrated the right speaker +2db more to compensate.

Soundstage: Voices are dead center and nicely focused but when the instruments start to play the soundstage becomes a bit cluttered and less coherent. Drums and cymbals are also dead center. When the guitar and any other instrument starts to come in, it's just all over the place.

Two Channel Soundstage in my open concept living room

Same speaker position

Same Listening position

* the speakers are away from the wall and this eliminated the need to add +2db to the right speaker.

Soundstage: The voice of the artist is still in the center but there is a more noticeable depth to it. One major issue that i noticed when i switched to the living room was that the bass i was experiencing in my room got noticeably weaker. This resulted in a 'thin' sound that i didn't particularly like. Instruments were a bit more defined but i'm still not satisfied with its overall presence.
 

Sihan Goi

Second Unit
Joined
Nov 2, 2001
Messages
442
Keir H, for $1000, I'd recommend the PSB Stratus Mini if you're looking for bookshelf monitors. They are however meant to be mounted on a stand, and they sound absolutely phenomenal. In fact, I think they image better and sound marginally better/clearer in the midrange/treble than the Stratus Goldi which I have, but lack the bass and dynamics its larger sibling is capable of. Still, mated with a good sub I think it is sure to impress for both music and movies.

Another contender in the price range is the Dynaudio Audience 40. I've heard many good things about it, and What Hifi regularly gives it 5 star ratings, so something good must be going on with these speakers, although I've never auditioned a pair before.
 

BruceD

Screenwriter
Joined
Apr 12, 1999
Messages
1,220
SYSTEM
Preamp: Parasound PLD-1100D (Dual mono stereo preamp)
Amp: Parasound 1205a
CD: Parasound CDC1500 changer
Speakers: Dynaudio Contour 2.8 towers
Sub: M&K MX-700 (with Marchand xover@60Hz & BFD Parametric EQ)

My room size is more than 3000 cu.ft. 19' wide x 13'
long with a 14' high sloped cathedral ceiling with 3 large
door openings to other rooms with 30 foot ceilings.

Speakers are on the long wall 42" out and at least >36"
from either side wall (mains are about 7' apart).
Listening position is only 18" out from the opposite
long wall and about 8' from my speakers.

Speakers are not toed-in, but the speakers are 18" out in front of a 7' tall armoire for TV and equipment that is between the speakers.

Extensive measurements with ETF5 acoustic software to optimize xovers and positioning in the room has delivered astounding results.

When listening to "Dire Straits", "James Taylor Live at the Beacon", "Sarah McLachlan", "Jewel", "Foreplay", etc.
instruments (like drums in Dire Straits) can create soundstage depth that appears as far back as 20 feet. Soundstage width extends beyond the width of the spekaers. The sterophile test CD is a good example for soundstage depth. I also get female vocals to die for and they appear to be about 5-6 feet high. Sarah's guitar is appropriately positioned just below her voice.

I'm really happy with my current sound setup in case you can't tell.
 

Justin Doring

Screenwriter
Joined
Jun 9, 1999
Messages
1,467
Jeremy,

Krell and McIntosh both make equally superb amps, but I prefer McIntosh with B&W, as it's warmth and smoothness complements the slightly bright and forward nature of the B&Ws. Classe' is also a great match with B&W.
 

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