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Denon's Questionable Warranty

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Adam.Gonsman, Jan 18, 2003.

  1. AustinKW

    AustinKW Stunt Coordinator

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    Brae,

    You may have as many doubts as you wish. The childishness of the posts to which I referred centered on guessing motives, reactions and advice rather than mano-a-mano discussion of these issues with those who don't guess. You may wish to try the latter approach sometime. Reality can be very invigorating once you discover it.

    Austin

     
  2. Phil Mays

    Phil Mays Second Unit

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    Austin,
    When you come across like that you put people on the defensive. It's kinda like the "gracefulness of a baby elephant in a china shop".
    I really do not understand your hard-line stance unless you are:
    a. An unauthorized dealer.
    b. Purchased from an unauthorized source.
    c. Work for Denon.
    d. Don't get it yourself.
    Dialog is how anything gets accomplished. Through dialog on this very site I have been able to make what I feel are good purchasing decisions. If it were not for this forum I would not have even known an unauthorized dealer existed.
    MatthewJS,
    That's interesting what you said. I COMPLETELY agree with what you said. I have no problem with profit margins (as long as it is not gouging) as most of the profit is for the service you get. If you don't get the service then find someone else.
    Recently I had the pleasure[​IMG] of purchasing a new washer/dryer/refrigerator. The person at Sear's commented that some of the lower line Kenmore products were produced by Frigidaire and they were having problems with these lines. I went to Lowe's and asked who's product was returned the most and their comment was "Frigidaire had more returns than all other product combined". This was a mature individual who said that "it's just their turn to have a bad period of time, they all have good and bad periods." Subsequently I bought Maytag.
    The point is if Denon has problems with their product, they will only make it worse by offering different levels of purchase points with different warranties for same product. How confusing is that?
    I was going to purchase a Denon 5800 or 5803, which I find myself highly questioning now. On the other hand there was a recent thread "slamming" SVS subs. The owners of SVS responded very politely to the person and in the process converted several people due to their prompt and professional manner in which they replaced the product even though it was the fault of the end user. Now I realize these are different sized companies.
     
  3. Mauricio_BR

    Mauricio_BR Agent

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    Guys,

    After all this discussion, IS IT LEGAL OR NOT ?!?

    (I´m not really interested, but curious)

    Mauricio
     
  4. Jonathan_D

    Jonathan_D Stunt Coordinator

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    Somebody wrote:
     
  5. John_F

    John_F Stunt Coordinator

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  6. Jonathan_D

    Jonathan_D Stunt Coordinator

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    You are correct in that the actual settlement is in the neighborhood of $150 million (about half cash, half in CD distributions), but I believe the original suit was in the multi-billion range.
    See www.musiccdsettlement.com.
     
  7. AustinKW

    AustinKW Stunt Coordinator

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    Phil,

    As you get older, you tend to value time more than money. All this conjecture on Denon's warranty policy is a waste of time considering the Answer is a phone call away. As I value my time, I tend to cut through the BS, make my points and move on. If you have a problem with that - fine. It's your problem not mine.

    An example for you to consider. I recently put a Denon unit up for sale and was unsure about whether the buyer would be able to obtain warranty service if needed. Did I post on the forums, get 50 uninformed "opinions", and make representation to the buyer on that basis? Nope. Called Denon, got my answer in 2 minutes flat, sold the unit and moved on.

    As to the options you gave me, I guess I'll have to take option d. Another thing, your last sentence makes a point I brought up earlier - the "consumer" you guys are always looking to protect is totally unaware of the UAD channel unless and until they tread these boards. Hopefully, when they do, they'll read my posts and ignore yours.

    Austin

     
  8. Chip_Slattery

    Chip_Slattery Stunt Coordinator

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  9. Jonathan_D

    Jonathan_D Stunt Coordinator

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    No, many states have laws covering what is termed "implied warranty". Further, restraint of trade is illegal, which is exactly what Denon and other manufacturers which threaten not to honor warranties for equipment sold by "unauthorized" dealers are doing - restraining the trade of the dealers. The question is *how* do these "unauthorized" dealers get the products? If they are not authorized to sell it, how are they buying it from either a) the manufacturer or b) a distributor? It seems there is a certain amount of hypocrisy going on on the part of these companies - "I'll sell all these units to you but you can't resell them - wink, wink, nudge, nudge."

    Honestly, I'm not a lawyer, but I do know that the "right" for companies to set up sales areas, limit internet/mail order marketing, et al, is not clear cut. I'd also be willing to be it will be challenged in court within the next 3 years or so.
     
  10. Brae

    Brae Supporting Actor

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    I find it interesting in that companies like Denon (not just them) have a clear ability to 'see' who is selling what on the Internet and form a black list for warranty denials. I bet they do not do this because they cannot do this.

    Afterall, when was the last time a manufacturers clear identified a reseller as reselling warrantiless products? And what is said on a phone conversation with whatever manufacturers may not necessarily be the truth, depending on national or state legislation.

    If you are too old to GAS about whether or not you are being taken to the bank for collisional and or misleading business practices, then fine.
     
  11. MatthewJ S

    MatthewJ S Supporting Actor

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    Actually, restraint of trade and "limiting competition" *are* illegal - its exactly what the FTC is all about and what people get so upset about concerning oil companies and record labels, the latter of which is settling a multi-billion dollar lawsuit on the whole issue. My recollection is that there is a group of audio dealers in the process of filing a lawsuit over the whole practice - or at least considering it. Not sure if Denon is specifically targeted. Lawsuits haven't come before because dealers are afraid if they start something the product pipe line will be cut off. Lawsuits can take years and who wants to go without a lucrative source of income for that extended period of time?
    ''''''''''''''''end quote,,,,,,,,,,,
    Actually ,Bose and other companies have found legal ways to "price fix" for years now, I believe that it has to do with how distributor and dealer contracts/agreements are written....the real point is that I don't think most people are willing to spend time and money fighting Denon in court all the while being without a working unit.....
    most will cave and buy a new one and denon knows this.....
    meanwhile the guy who bought from an authorized retailer gets either a new one or at least a loaner while his gets repaired under warranty.....
     
  12. Derek1

    Derek1 Agent

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    For a quick note on the "legality" of the warranty restrictions.
    The main legal document surrounding warranty issues in the United States is the Magnuson-Moss Act.
    Understanding the Magnuson-Moss
    Warranty Act
    The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is the federal law that governs consumer product warranties. Passed by Congress in 1975, the Act requires manufacturers and sellers of consumer products to provide consumers with detailed information about warranty coverage. In addition, it affects both the rights of consumers and the obligations of warrantors under written warranties.
    To understand the Act, it is useful to be aware of Congress' intentions in passing it. First, Congress wanted to ensure that consumers could get complete information about warranty terms and conditions. By providing consumers with a way of learning what warranty coverage is offered on a product before they buy, the Act gives consumers a way to know what to expect if something goes wrong, and thus helps to increase customer satisfaction.
    Second, Congress wanted to ensure that consumers could compare warranty coverage before buying. By comparing, consumers can choose a product with the best combination of price, features, and warranty coverage to meet their individual needs.
    Finally, Congress wanted to strengthen existing incentives for companies to perform their warranty obligations in a timely and thorough manner and to resolve any disputes with a minimum of delay and expense to consumers. Thus, the Act makes it easier for consumers to pursue a remedy for breach of warranty in the courts, but it also creates a framework for companies to set up procedures for resolving disputes inexpensively and informally, without litigation
    The second Congressional request speaks directly to this issue. "I can buy it from dealer A for $500 with a 2yr warranty or dealer B for $400 with no warranty".
    There are several legal ways for a manufacture to "get out of a warranty" if it was not purchased from an authorized dealer. Just because they previously had chosen not to do so doesn't mean that they are now somehow ripping off the consumer.
    Method no. 1: They can deem the sale of the item to the unauthorized dealer as the original retail purchase thus any secondary transactions would then be addressed by the non transference clause in their printed warranty.
    Method no. 2: Failure to provide proof of purchase. A receipt from an unauthorized dealer could be deemed unacceptable proof.
    Method no. 3: Offer only very limited warranties (30 days) with the offer of a free extended warranty (5 years) with registration of the product. Registration forms returned with improper information (unauthorized dealers) would be denied the extended coverage.
    It is the sole responsibility of the consumer to investigate warranty coverage of a product before buying. Retailers are required to provide a copy of the manufactures warranty. I you are shopping on-line the obvious place to request a copy of the warranty is from the manufactures web site. It is here that Denon and Marantz state clearly the terms and conditions of the warranty. If a dealer Authorized or Not makes any claim to the contrary of these written warranties they are either uninformed or lying and potentially committing fraud in the process.
     
  13. Phil Mays

    Phil Mays Second Unit

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    Wow, that's pretty clear.
    I personally have never questioned whether or not it's legal or questionable (it's rather clear cut) but rather if it's good business practice to allow unauthorized sale's of their product. Then again I guess it all depends on your scope of what is good. Short term cash flow in tough times, it's OK. But for long term market place respect?
    Oh well, as started before I have purchased from an authorized dealer and had to use the warranty in which they did the repairs as stated and on time. That was over 1 year ago and alls well.[​IMG]
     
  14. Jonathan_D

    Jonathan_D Stunt Coordinator

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    Just a couple questions:

    From where does the posted information come and on what basis do you make your interpretation?

    I would observe that its not nearly as straightforward as Phil as exclaimed. Given the accuracy of the information, the second reason seems to me to be a comparison *between* manufacturers, *not* between resellers.

    I would be interested in the whole thing being played out in court. If they can find Microsoft guilty of unfair practices it doesn't seem hard to believe they'd find companies like Denon, Yamaha and Marrantz guilty as well.
     
  15. Chip_Slattery

    Chip_Slattery Stunt Coordinator

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    I think most of the topics discussed in this thread can be clarified by reading through the following:
    A Businessperson's Guide to Federal Warranty Law
    Appropriate Federal & State Codes, Rules & Sections are referenced.
    I'll refrain from additional comment until I've had a chance to read through the entire text myself.
    It's actually pretty interesting stuff, and both confirms and refutes many of the arguments previously presented in this thread.
     
  16. Adam.Gonsman

    Adam.Gonsman Stunt Coordinator

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    Derek,
    Awesome post!!! This is exactly what I was inquiring when I first started the thread. Unfortunately, it goes against what I had hoped, but it does answer the question.

    Chip,
    Good link. Interesting stuff. I'm gonna have to sit down and have good through read of that too.
     
  17. Phil Mays

    Phil Mays Second Unit

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    Chip,

    Excellent link. From skimming I find the "implied warranty of merchantability" very interesting. In other words the product will do what you say it will do.

    I guess unauthorized dealers can get around that by offering their own "in-house" service or selling the product "as-is".
     
  18. Derek1

    Derek1 Agent

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    Jonathan,

    Good catch on the "product" interpretation. It does state product though not manufacturer. I would argue that the "product" and the warranty being part of that "product" could indeed be different at different retailers leaving it up to the consumer to seek out the best "value" combination.

    FYI The information came from a law library.

    On another note. Express and Implied Warranties if available in your state are binding to the seller not a manufacturer.

    Express warranties are things stated by the seller or it's agent during the transaction. "This thing will last forever". Express warranties are very difficult to enforce due to the the fact that it's pretty much ones' word against another.

    Implied warranties are that a product will do what it is reasonably expected to do in the marketplace based on several factors including price. ie a washing machine will wash clothes. These Implied warranties are not stated.
     
  19. Jonathan_D

    Jonathan_D Stunt Coordinator

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    Express warranties *may* be oral, they may also be written. Express warranties that are oral only obviously are difficult to enforce (unless, of course, one has witnesses).
    As to the link provided above, I found it interesting and informative but I'm not sure it dirrectly addresses the question at hand regarding the legality of manufacturer's refusal to honor warranties on products sold by "non-authorized" resellers. While the law does not require manufacturers to offer written warranties, once they do they must abide by it.
    I did come across something (sorry, can't remember where) that stated that distribution contracts that limit sales territory and minimum pricing are not illegal. However, I think the whole issue of Internet sales is not settled and that while none are imminent, it seems lawsuits on the issue are inevitable. Their outcome should be interesting. Perhaps someone would be willing to spearhead a class action suit on behalf of consumers?! [​IMG]
     
  20. Phil Mays

    Phil Mays Second Unit

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    Ahhh, class action suits. The consumer get a warranty book and the lawyers get big bucks[​IMG] Sorry not harm intended[​IMG]
    I once recieved an .18 cent check from my credit card company as a class action settelment. I still don't know what they did to me to deserve such a gracious settlement.[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     

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