Denon recievers no DD EX Why?? (1 Viewer)

[Steve Marsh]

I have been looking at the Denon x802 line of recievers and was wondering why they have all kinds of DTS processing (ES, ES Discrete, Neo 6) but no DD EX unless you go to the top models.
Whats up with that?

 

[Chris Purvis]

probably the same reason it isn't present in the H/K line - Dolby made a deal with THX when DD EX came out - which was that it would be exclusive to THX certified decoders for one or two years.
I remember hearing about this when it happened, but I'd forgotten about it until just this last week when I asked the same question, as I'm looking for a new receiver to use as a pre-pro myself.

 

[Peter Overduin]

The 1803 - due out shortly (some already have it) has the DD-EX and DTS-ES. I have one on order and am eagerly awaiting it. If you can lay off the 02 series for a bit longer, the 1803 may be what you want.

 

[Walt N]

Some of the AVR-XX02 receivers have what Denon calls "Matrix 6.1 decoding". This is exactly the same as DD-EX minus the licensing agreement.

 

[Bolivar G]

My 4802 has THX surround EX. Is that the same thing??
It also has seperate mtrx 6.1 , hmm now im getting confused

 

[Tony Lai]

What Chris says is essentially correct.

THX Surround 7.1 came out about the same time as dts-ES. There was to be a Dolby EX but they scrapped it perhaps wanting to push THX as the success to ac3 5.1 - I remeber a handful of EX products coming out very early that were then scrapped. THX proved to be too expensive. However products had to be released before the introduction of EX 5.1 - and this is where the Denon and H/K products came out of.

T.

 

[RichardMA]

Lest anyone think all "EX" or matrix decoding is the
same, it is not. Dolby EX, THX-EX, Circle Surround
and the application of an old Pro-Logic unit to produce
an "EX" channel are all different and sound different.
They even have different claimed channel separation
levels, hovering around 30db-40db.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

So how is DD EX different than THX Surround EX? I thought they were *exactly* the same. Like Tony said, there were a few components early on with THX Surround EX decoding, but my likewise impression was that the THX licensing was too expensive. So they came out with Dolby Digital EX, which to my knowledge was exactly the same, but no THX license fees required.

And, if not straight DPL (perhaps in 3-channel mode, old Pioneer DPL decoders have this), how is that rear center info extracted from the surrounds?

Circle Surround is different. Leaves more of the original info in the surrounds.

 

[Tony Lai]

Ummm...

THX Surround EX 7.1 (ie. two matrix rears)

Dolby Digitial EX 5.1 (ie. one matrix rear center)

Isn't that the difference? Are there Dolby EX products with 7.1?

T.

 

[Steve Marsh]

I know how to tell for sure but I do not own the reciever. Denon owners try this.
On Star Wars Ep 1 and some other discs there is a THX test signal in the menus called "optimode" It has a rear center signal. If your reciever plays this independent of the side surrounds then it does EX decoding.
So Please Denon owners give it a try and let me know.
Thanks Steve

 

[AaronBatiuk]

Respectfully, Tony, you are not right:

THX Surround 7.1 came out about the same time as dts-ES. There was to be a Dolby EX but they scrapped it perhaps wanting to push THX as the success(or) to ac3 5.1 - I remeber a handful of EX products coming out very early that were then scrapped. THX proved to be too expensive. However products had to be released before the introduction of EX 5.1 - and this is where the Denon and H/K products came out of.

"THX Surround 7.1" is marketting speak made up by the receiver manufacturers. It is not a format, but a decoding mode, and not one that THX endorses. THX calls the format "THX Surround EX". Not 7.1.
THX and Dolby jointly developed DD-EX (Dolby Digital-Surround EX). THX calls it THX Surround EX, and they include extra processing common to THX (decorrelation of the rears, re-EQ, etc. etc.). Dolby strongly recommends using a pair of rear speakers; THX requires it. Neither of them have ever called EX a 6.1 or 7.1 channel format. You can read all about it at THX's website, and I strongly recommend that you do: http://www.thx.com/consumer_products/surround_ex.html
You will notice absolutely no mention of "6.1" or "7.1", only of "surround back" channels.
Only dts with their dts-ES 6.1 (discrete) can claim to have a 6.1 channel format.
As for Chris' comment, Sony's receivers have, for about 1.5 years now, had DD-EX. None of them have THX anything, so I don't think that Chris' comment is exactly true (only THX-EX, no DD-EX, for a couple years). And yes, Sony's implementation of 6.1 channel matrix decoding does use a Dolby labs supplied decoder (you can also elect to use Sony's DCMD decoder instead, but why?).
p.s. Another excellent resource to find answers is Dolby's home theatre section of their website: http://www.dolby.com/ht/

 

[Chris Purvis]

Check your facts Aaron
It was exclusive to THX - approved processors for 2 years. Here's the press release announcing THX Surround EX decoders from 1999:
http://www.thx.com/press/cinema_surround.html
and the subsequent Dolby Digital Surround EX for home announcement from 2001:
Link Removed

 

[Bolivar G]

Quote from that Article

Products displaying the Dolby Digital EX or THX Surround EX logos are required to reproduce the extra surround channel.

So I guess my Denon 4802 does do DD-EX then?? Since it has the THX surround EX logo on it.

 

[Chris Purvis]

Oh yes is most assuredly does. Nice unit, by the way.

 

[Tony Lai]

If your unit has THX Surround EX well then you really have no need for Dolby EX.

I have never seen an THX Surround EX products that were less than 7.1 decoded channels. I may have seen some Dolby EX products with 7.1 but most were 6.1 from memory. I could be wrong...

T.

 

[Chris Brown]

My pioneer VSX-D811s has Dolby-EX... and it's no secret this is totally a budget receiver... is it just because the pioneer is a 2002 model and the denon's he was talking about are older models?

So, a straight answer here, what is the difference between THX surround EX and Dolby Digital-EX. I always thought they were the same... which one is better and how are they different? Are movies like Episode 1 encoded in DD-EX or THX-EX?

It really sucks when you read a thread and it blows away lots of things you thought you knew... blah.

 

[Adam Barratt]

what is the difference between THX surround EX and Dolby Digital-EX. I always thought they were the same... which one is better and how are they different? Are movies like Episode 1 encoded in DD-EX or THX-EX?

As discussed above by Aaron, the only differences between THX-EX and Dolby Digital EX are some additional processing (de-correlation etc.) for THX-EX and the requirement of two back surround speakers (Dolby Digital EX may use only one, as with Yamaha's DD-EX receivers).

Movie soundtracks are recorded in Dolby Digital Surround EX. THX-EX does not exist as an actual audio format but as a processing system, much as Pro Logic soundtracks do not exist, but rather Pro Logic processing is applied to Dolby Surround soundtracks.

Adam

 

[Tony Lai]

Do people here have comprehension problems?

This is what I wrote:

"I have never seen an THX Surround EX products that were less than 7.1 decoded channels."

This is what I didn't write:

"I have never seen an THX Surround EX products that were less than 7.1 encoded channels."

See the difference?

Why do they have 6 or 7 channel amplifiers? I could care less how many channels are actually encoded... that is a known fact.

All these people going on about how 6.1 and 7.1 don't exist... I am fully aware of that. That is not my concern. My concern is the existence of 6 and 7 channel equipment.

T.

 

[Adam Barratt]

Talk of 7.1-channel systems in any context does nothing other than confuse the subject. There are 5.1 discrete channels and one derived channel. The differences between the two systems are how this information is reproduced.

'7.1' by definition refers to discrete channels (regardless of its innacurate use by some manufacturers); not a combination of discrete and derived matrixed channels. If discussing the number of amplifier channels a system requires, then a full THX-EX system uses eight, but remains a 5.1-channel format.

Adam

 

[Jeff Kohn]

This is what I wrote:

"I have never seen an THX Surround EX products that were less than 7.1 decoded channels."

Well OK, but even that's a bit misleading, since channels doesn't necessarily equate to speakers, and it's actually 6.1 decoded channels with 2 rear speakers playing the same mono back channel. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you have to step up to THX Ultra-2 before you get stereo rears.